Call or fold pre-flop?

[lunchmeat]

Paradise 1/2 loose, semi-aggressive

I'm in the small blind with K7s. EP calls, CO raises, button smooth calls. I fold, even though the big blind has been cold calling many raises, and the raiser has been raising rather frequently (although he hasn't shown any of his raising hands). Was folding the right play or should I have seen the flop?

[anatta]

Good fold. Your KXs only common good flop is a flush draw. This is not worth calling a raise, even from the SB. If you are in doubt, think of the "Ciafonne Rule".

The "(Bob) Ciafonne rule" states that any hand that you can play on the button for a raise, you can call in the small blind. The idea is the 1/2 bet that you are in makes up for your lack of position. I will call a raise with medium pocket pairs in the small blind more often then on the button, but other than small exceptions like this, I think its a good guideline.

[lil']

You're playing for a flush here is you play this, and you don't have anywhere near the odds to make that call.

[bernie]

easy fold.

sounds like if you hit your K, youd be tied to it a little too much.

for 1/2 bet, yes, call. for 1.5bets, fold.

b

[Dynasty]

As a general rule, if you are asking yourself whether you should call or fold pre-flop, you should fold. When you ask the same question on the river, you should call.

[Robk]

Try the "Ciaffone Rule". If you wouldn't coldcall with it on the button, don't coldcall with it in the SB.

[Ed Miller]

I hate this "rule". I think it's just wrong, especially in a two chip blind structure. The range of hands I'm calling with from the SB is just a different range of hands than those I'm cold-calling with on the button. The first place I can identify a clear difference is with small pairs... there are other places I'd differ as well.

[anatta]

I agree that you can throw the Ciafonne rule out the window in the 2/3 (or 1/3) structure, and pocket pairs are an exception. I think the rule has use for players who might want to call a legitimate raise with easily dominated hands like AJo or KQo, reasoning they are already 1/2 in. The original post wanted to know about KXs, so you can see how much players over value that 1/2 bet.

[Michael Davis]

I think this is a lot closer than everyone else is making it out to be.

Considerations:

1) The limper. Is he apt to raise with hands that contain a K? What are his limping standards vs. raising standards?

2) You say the preflop raiser has loose raising standards, or at least his been raising a lot of late (entirely different). Is the limper likely to fold every time he misses the flop? Is this player capable of isolation?

3) The BB is likely to come for what might be an overly loose call. What is the likelihood of your taking the pot down with a flop checkraise followed up by aggressive betting, even if you have nothing?

I am convinced I could turn a profit with this hand. Am I wrong?

-Mike

[Ed Miller]

Ya... I agree with you. I really like Ciaffone's books, but I disagreed with his treatment here. He also said in MLHP that the difference between a 1/2 SB and a 2/3 SB is neglegible when debating whether to call a raise. I also disagree with that.

While people need to understand that they still need to play tightly in the blind against a legitimate raise, this cold-call on the button rule is just more misleading than helpful, IMHO.

[lil']

1) The limper. Is he apt to raise with hands that contain a K? What are his limping standards vs. raising standards?
Even if you think the raiser is raising with a weakish hand, do you really think it is worse than K-7? Besides the raiser, there are two other players (one who called 2 cold) who may also have K-7 completely dominated.

3) The BB is likely to come for what might be an overly loose call. What is the likelihood of your taking the pot down with a flop checkraise followed up by aggressive betting, even if you have nothing?
You want to bluff 4 players with nothing? Doesn't seem like a good plan to me...