QQ Hand

[Boris]

Since we've decided that $40-$80 counts as "high limit", here goes...

I'm posting this because Mike l. gave me a ton of grief about the hand.

B&M 40-80 game. The game is medicore. There's only one really bad player and the rest are passive nits. There's one New Guy (NG) to my immediate right who I sense is taking a shot at a higher limit, but I'm not sure. He hasn't won any pots and is slowly getting nitted to death. He's on his second buy-in.

5 players limp and I complete in the Small Blind with QQ.

Flop: Jd-5c-3h

I check. Solid Player (SP) bets, NG calls, I call and the Live One calls. NG made a weird spazzy motion when he called. My read was that he wanted to raise but then didn't.

Turn: Jd-5c-3h (8h)

All check to the NG, who bets. I raise and it's folded back to NG. NG 3 bets. Eff me. After some thought I decided to call.

River: Jd-5c-3h (8h) (3d).

I check.

Comments?

[haakee]

Tell me this was not you who had QQ here.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me this was not you who had QQ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Duke]

I do not believe you played this hand as the QQ.

~D

[Justin A]

I can't imagine any reason to not put in more bets preflop and on the flop.

PREFLOP: This is a must raise! You have a strong equity edge in this situation, you must raise to exploit this edge. Just calling here was a grave sin.

FLOP: If I read your post right, there are 7 people seeing this flop including you and the BB. In this situation I like checking better than betting, since someone is very likely to bet and you can then checkraise for elimination or checkraise for value depending on the action. In your situation you couldve accomplished both objectives, by checkraising you couldve forced the live one to either fold correctly or call incorrectly and you couldve got more money in the pot by making the solid player and the NG put another small bet in. Checking and calling in this situation was again the wrong move in my opinion, you shouldve raised.

TURN: There is 5.5BB in this pot now, this means that if you bet, no one will be getting the correct odds to call with a gutshot or even a 5 outer, since a bet will protect your hand there is no reason to go for a check raise now, plus if you bet out the solid player may raise to protect your hand anyways, another problem with going for the turn checkraise is that there is a chance that this turn may get checked around and 3 opponents seeing the river for free would be a catastrope for your one pair hand. If the flop bettor was directly on your right checkraising the turn would have more merit, but he is not so betting out the turn for reasons I have listed is the better play IMO.

Given the way you played the hand once the NG bets you must raise and you did so I like your play there. Once the NG 3 bets you are in big trouble since his most likely hand given his play thus far is 55 or 33, it is also possible he has J8s but he probably wouldve raised the flop, or he could have 53s but he probably would not 3 bet the turn. You have a profitable draw to beat these 2 unlikely hands and theres always the chance your opponent is overplaying AJ or he has some BS hand like Ah5h. Since the pot is now quite large(10.5BB) and you are against an unknown I think you should call down.

[bicyclekick]

yuck. This hand shouldn't even be moved to mid or small. Micro perhaps?

Ugly.

[Boris]

That's great advice. Very helpful.

[Boris]

More high quality input from the mods.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
More high quality input from the mods.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, so just cause I'm a mod I can't rip you for a hand that was played like a $2/4 wannabe pro?

[Paluka]

Boris obviously the standard play for those who post in high stakes is to raise this one preflop, so until you address that point I'm not sure how we can reply. If I did limp preflop I would certainly checkraise the flop, or bet the flop hoping to get raised. I understand why you might want to wait until a later street to raise, but there are too many people in this hand. Two small bets is worth just as much as one big one.

[mike l.]

it was him with the QQ already.

anyway what i said was preflop obviously we raise most of the time but calling sometimes is okay. remember, it's the play sklansky likes, let's not go into why it's still better to raise, bottom line is calling can have it's merit.

flop is clearly a disaster but boris had his reasons. for me the play from the sb into such a large field on such a drawless board is bet in hopes of being able to 3 bet. save the c/r for when you have a gutshot heavy board and want to get those gutter balls out. after you bet if someone else 3 bets for you flat call so you can c/r that guy on the turn is the play. anyway bet-3 bet is significantly better than c/r here imo because of the texture of this board: i.e. it's super safe and good for QQ, plus the pot is too small you need to add some beef to it and that's more important than trying to clear out the field. plus remember they cant read your hand, you flat called preflop. so a pair of Js will give you too much action.

given the flop smooth call, on the turn the play is to donk bet and hope someone raises so you can 3 bet.

hope this helps.

oh one more thing: 40-80 is NOT high stakes lol, who decided that? HS should be 80 and up.

[Boris]

You can rip me all you want as long as you specify which plays were wrong and why.

[Boris]

I didn't raise pre-flop because I felt it may severely diminish any chance of check-raising on later streets. No doubt I gave up beaucoup equity by this decision. But I also felt I would win the pot more often by just calling pre-flop.

[mike l.]

[ QUOTE ]
I felt it may severely diminish any chance of check-raising on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

which is why you check-called the flop as well. youre correct that the crux of this hand is the chance of clearing out players and increasing your chance of winning the pot vs. getting more money in the pot. because you didnt raise preflop (again not at all worthy of debate imo) your play of the hand shouldve leaned more heavily in favor of building a bigger pot on such a perfect board, the pot is not large enough to be so concerned with trying to c/r. bet-3 bet flop and/or turn was the play, especially because your hand was so well disguised

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise pre-flop because I felt it may severely diminish any chance of check-raising on later streets. No doubt I gave up beaucoup equity by this decision. But I also felt I would win the pot more often by just calling pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this concept, but stuff like this has been discussed at depth on the forums and I'm pretty sure just about everyone agrees in the long run the extra small bets are worth more than winning the pot more often. The limp preflop, checkraise plan just leaves you with too small of a pot, and you end up getting totally killed on the later streets when someone flops a set, but not winning a lot of bets when your hand is good. If you put a lot of money in preflop, the times you lose to a set don't hurt as much.
If you really want to checkraise, I think you could raise preflop and still get a checkraise in on the flop quite often. You check the flop with 6 guys to act one of them will decide to bet, especially because your hand will look like AK to them.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
If you put a lot of money in preflop, the times you lose to a set don't hurt as much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

[Boris]

Yea I like your bet/3bet plan. Not sure it would have worked in this situation though.

[Justin A]

On the river I like the check call much better than a bet because if you did just pull in front of two pair your opponent will still be betting. The way you played the hand early means he can't put you on an overpair.

[Boris]

Good analysis.

[skp]

[ QUOTE ]
If you really want to checkraise, I think you could raise preflop and still get a checkraise in on the flop quite often. You check the flop with 6 guys to act one of them will decide to bet, especially because your hand will look like AK to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, good stuff. Then when they see you play this way with QQ, you also stand a better chance of getting a free card when you raise from the bb with Ak and the flop comes J85.

There is no rule that I know of which says that you must bet the flop when you raise preflop.

In fact, my standard play here would be to raise preflop and check on the J85 flop to checkraise a player to my right. If a player to my left bets and a couple of guys call, I would still checkraise now - for value rather than limiting the field - and sow some doubt in their minds that I flopped a set of jacks.

Just calling the flop - because the bet came from your left - is inferior to checkraising. Lots of stuff can happen on the turn which may foil your plans to checkraise on the turn. For example, if an ace or King comes, you may have to bet it yourself as the action might get checked through if they put you on Ak. Also if the turn is a 9 or something and the board is now J985, a bet and a raise ahead of you may leave you in a quandary as to what to do with your qq.

All kinds of crap can happen. You should decloak on the flop. Besides, as Mike l. said, they would never put you on QQ since you didn't raise preflop and someone with a hand as "weak" as KJ may go to war with ya.

[J_V]

Responses like this will bury this forum pretty quickly. If you don't like the hand give a reason why. The point of this forum isn't to be elitist and that's all I'm seeing.

[lil feller]

This is not the sort of respones that a mod should make. We all know you can contribute BK.

lf

[J_V]

I think almost anytime you slowplay a big pair preflop, your best play is to lead/3-bet, over check-raising. Waiting to the turn with this mainly players is a disaster.

I think you may have been thinking one street at a time in this hand and ran yourself into a pickle. That is usually how I get myself into these messes - and it almost always happens when I'm in unfamiliar territory (in this case - a five way limped pot) w/ QQ.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
You can rip me all you want as long as you specify which plays were wrong and why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise pre-flop.

Given that you didn't I don't think your line is the worst, although I think betting out and 3 betting is a superior play.

The river is close. check/calling is probably better than betting but esp given that almost raise on the flop I think j8 is a distinct possibilty.

And sorry to all for being a dick, esp boris.

[ggbman]

I think raising preflop and pushing your equity edge is the correct play. Given that you didn't, like bet/3betting the flop followed by check-raising. I don't like the check call, you likely have the best hand and want some value and to shut out people in a multiway pot.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I think almost anytime you slowplay a big pair preflop, your best play is to lead/3-bet, over check-raising. Waiting to the turn with this mainly players is a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was about to make a post in this thread like i did w/ TT post but i saw you make a post and wanted to read it first. this is exactly what i was thinking. and i think you're dead on. checking the flop here given the preflop play is no goot.

[ QUOTE ]

I think you may have been thinking one street at a time in this hand and ran yourself into a pickle. That is usually how I get myself into these messes - and it almost always happens when I'm in unfamiliar territory (in this case - a five way limped pot) w/ QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, dead on. when you travel in unchartered waters, you make more mistakes even if your initial decision to chart into those waters was good. the inclusion of your possible mistakes given unconventional play is necessary. so boris, if you were going to play a perfect flop like this the way you did, you need to raise pf imo.

Barron

[lil feller]

This might make me sound like a complete goofball lagtard, but i've been trying to work on my river play.

What does everybody think of a river c/r fold to a 3 bet? What got there on the turn that we aren't in front of on the river, except for a set? Only a full house will 3bet, and all the two pair hands will call having no reason to put hero on an overpair.

As others have already stated the rest of the hand is a little goofy, but I think thats been discussed enough.

lf

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise pre-flop because I felt it may severely diminish any chance of check-raising on later streets. No doubt I gave up beaucoup equity by this decision. But I also felt I would win the pot more often by just calling pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is your goal to maximize earn or minimize variance? Even if you are able to better "protect" your hand (debateable), people don't fold that many more hands that they wouldn't have already folded had you just raised PF and bet the flop. IMO.


Also, I think if you complete PF, you gotta do it knowing people are underestimating how strong you are, meaning you need to get more bets in. Preferably on the flop, since on the turn it's easy to get frozen up when people give you action (sorta like what happened here).

I hope you checked the river in intent of raising?

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
There's only one really bad player and the rest are passive nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's just me, but this sounds like an awesome game.

[Boris]

Heh. Well, as opposed to the rest of you, I thought my call of the turn 3 bet was the fishiest part of the hand. Anyways, I checked on the river and the bad guy checks behind. WTF is up with that? I turned my hand over (somewhat sheepishly I might add) and the bad guy inserts his cards in the muck.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh. Well, as opposed to the rest of you, I thought my call of the turn 3 bet was the fishiest part of the hand. Anyways, I checked on the river and the bad guy checks behind. WTF is up with that? I turned my hand over (somewhat sheepishly I might add) and the bad guy inserts his cards in the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe you were considering folding. I've posted this a million times in this forum, but I'll do it again. You simply cannot (and I mean this, it is one of the worst things you can do in poker) make a tight fold on a late street after slowplaying your hand earlier. They have no idea your hand is as good as it is, that is why they are 3 betting you.

[Boris]

If you were there you would have considered folding. Trust me. You would never find this guy in a Pokerstars 100-200 game, much less a 30-60.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
If you really want to checkraise, I think you could raise preflop and still get a checkraise in on the flop quite often. You check the flop with 6 guys to act one of them will decide to bet, especially because your hand will look like AK to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you raise preflop, with this many players, your opponents almost have to bet the flop if there is a chance they have the best hand, because the pot is so big and juicy. Even most of the bad players understand this. So you should get a chance to check/raise most of the time.

FWIW, I like mike's bet/3-bet plan best on this board.

[mike l.]

true but you explained to death donkey and i that he may have been fed up from losing pot after pot. im pretty sure the guy had KJ.

[shmahappens]

Is raising QQ here PF even a question?
You think NG limped second in with 33 or 55?

I don't get these two points of the hand. Other than that...

[SA125]

I think not raising pre-flop is okay only if you'll play the flop fast if it's good for you. No one will put you on QQ, so lead and hope to 3 bet someone's TP. If not leading, c/r. Had you shown strength prior to the turn, his 3 bet would have had a lot more wieght.

He was probably more surprised that you had QQ than you were of his river check.

definently bet the river

[andyfox]

I find when a guy is losing at stakes that might be slightly uncomfortable for him, the indecision about raising or calling is not because the guy is undecided about slowplaying, but rather because he's undecided about whether his hand actually merits a raise. So I'd be more inclined to put him on J-8s or Qh-Jh or somesuch than a set.

One should always consider raising, calling, and folding; only 3 decisions, a shame not to at least consider all three. But the indecision on your opponent's part, plus the fact that you slowplayed a hand which he would have no reasonable way to put you on, would have made me think he was weaker than he otherwise might be.

[J.A.Sucker]

Boris, Boris, Boris...

You've got to pop that preflop, because popping it is fun. I like to play big pots, especially with big pairs. I understand your rationale for not raising, but I don't agree with it. 2.5 big bets is a lot, you know? Hell, sometimes even people will just reraise for the hell of it, and then you get to play a monster.

Being that you didn't, then I like getting lots of bets in on the flop. Either bet it out or checkraise. A C/R would have been hot here, since it sounds like you would have been able to get a 3-way cap, possibly even 4 ways with the live one. This is becasue the better is on your left, the live one in the middle, and the spazzo on your right. Bingo bango bongo.

You can't fold your hand. Even if you know you're beat, just show it down and look stupid. I like the play on the turn & river, actually. There is one thing that I don't like, though: you said you THOUGHT ABOUT IT. Never do this. You don't want people to think about anything, nor let them know that you can be made a little uncomfortable. Just call it down in a flash. If you do have to think about it, try to learn to BS them while you buy yourself some time.

Oh and by the way: 40-80 is plenty big to be "high limit" - you can get all the money in the world at this level if you play well. I'd say that's plenty big, and given a few years, most of the others on this board will agree with me.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't fold your hand. Even if you know you're beat, just show it down and look stupid. I like the play on the turn & river, actually. There is one thing that I don't like, though: you said you THOUGHT ABOUT IT. Never do this. You don't want people to think about anything, nor let them know that you can be made a little uncomfortable. Just call it down in a flash. If you do have to think about it, try to learn to BS them while you buy yourself some time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is insane. The pot wasn't all that big until he 3 bet me on the turn. Plus he has to be scared of me since I'm the one in the sb and could easily have some random 2 pair bs hand. At some point in the hand you have to start thinking that one pair is no good and after getting 3 bet by a guy who appears to be over his head, it's as good a time as any. Also players at 30-60 and above think about things all the time. It's not like I'm letting out a big secret.

I agree about the pre-flop and flop decisions. I played this one bad.

[J.A.Sucker]

I disagree. I know what you are saying, but I think it's a bad habit to get into. My 7th grade art teacher, Mr. McHugh used to always say "draw what you see, not what you think is there." The problem with folding in spots like this is often you begin to see things that aren't there. You can't help it, and then you're hurting badly because when you sit down on a park bench, you get splinters in your ass since your wallet doesn't have any padding left in it.

[Boris]

You're speaking in generalities with no particular connection to the hand in question. You're telling me if Vu or Gerry the prop 3 bets you on the turn you call him down with one pair? please.

[J.A.Sucker]

I do. I'm not saying it's right, but I do.

[Lawrence Ng]

Preflop slanders aside on Boris, I would like to think more what his opponents put Boris on in this particular hand since Boris did not raise preflop and had the sb after a few limpers. Boris range of hands could be very wide here. J-5 suit, J-3 suited, 3-5 suited or offsuit, along with 33,55 could all be very likely hands since Boris only called an extra half bet.

So this makes for a very interesting post flop play IMHO because what we have is essentially a pretty good board for QQ OOP. My first choice would probably have been to bet, 3-bet and squeeze the damn gutshots and 5 outers for all the damn value I can.

But the way Boris plays it, it smells more like a set. But that's just the way I see it and I don't know how Boris' opponents perceive him at the table and whether or not they even bother to pay attention to how Boris plays big hands.

I don't really like the turn check-raise here and I am finding that in spots where I am OOP with possibly the best hand I like the bet a lot more than the check-raise on this particular board with this particular line-up. Straight forward play seems to be best and betting out garners for more information regarding the strength of your hand so that opponents have to give you some degree of respect for your hand. Check-raises are are overrated for textbook reasons like giving the damn free card, and ultimately facing a 3-bet with a good but not great hand putting you in a tough bind.

Am I the only one who likes the check-call on the river? Everything to this point heavily suggests my opponent might have a set here. Sure he may have KJ, QJ, and the likelihood of a counterfeited 2 pair, but I don't see how betting this river can be for value based on how Boris had shown aggression and his opponent even more aggression.

Lawrence

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Since we've decided that $40-$80 counts as "high limit", here goes...

[/ QUOTE ]

i think JAsucker mentioned this but id like to reiterate: 40/80 is PLENTY big. since ive been playing the paradise game alot its apparant how big that game is. seems more than 33%>30/60.

Barron

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
anyway what i said was preflop obviously we raise most of the time but calling sometimes is okay. remember, it's the play sklansky likes, let's not go into why it's still better to raise, bottom line is calling can have it's merit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky said that it's OK not to raise QQ in the big blind after multiple limpers (although I raise it every time). I don't think he's ever advocated just completing the small blind with QQ.

[haakee]

I seriously thought this was one of those hands from the opponent's perspective. I raise QQ here preflop 100% of the time. If you want to be deceptive with a bunch of limpers then get aggro in the SB with hands that play well multiway like QJs instead of slowplaying QQ. You can get a lot of extra money in there preflop as a guaranteed favorite here. And like Sucker said, somebody else may re-pop it with a worse hand. What was your rationale here?

Also, failing to raise preflop you really should bet the flop. If it gets checked around that really sucks. Depending upon the action you can figure out what to do from there, and it will probably be jamming the pot.

Turn and river are fine.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
I seriously thought this was one of those hands from the opponent's perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who'd ya think played the hand? David Sklansky?

[mike l.]

"Sklansky said that it's OK not to raise QQ in the big blind after multiple limpers (although I raise it every time). I don't think he's ever advocated just completing the small blind with QQ."

dude it's almost the same concept. he will think completing is right for the same reasons.

[Tommy Angelo]

"beaucoup"

Your play on this hand is suspect but your spelling is awesome. :-)

I think not raising before the flop is fine, but I really think in that case that betting out on the flop to give someone else a chance to raise is better than checkcalling the flop or checkraising the flop or betting the turn or checkraising the turn. You can get some great info, and help, with one little bet out on the flop.

Tommy