Single Table Online Tournaments

[dj_jazzyjeff]

I play a lot of single-table tourneys on Partypoker. I play tight (EXTREMELY tight) early and wait out the morons to see themselves out. I make top 4 consistently, but am usually blinded out soon after because I didn't gamble early.

I think I can beat any of these chumps if the blind levels didn't raise so fast. Does anyone have any winning strategy, or know of any other sites w/ tournaments that have blind structures that don't raise so fast??

[SoCalPat]

Are you talking limit or no-limit?

I've pretty much ditched NL sit-and-gos for many of the reasons you stated -- NL requires tightness (not a bad thing), and the blind levels will eat you alive (definitely a bad thing) if you're not giving yourself a chance to build your stack with, say, KJs from early position.

Limit, however, is a whole 'nother ballgame with sit-n-gos. I find it essential that you loosen up early (emphasis on early -- first three levels) and play hands with great potential (any suited A or K, any suited, one-or-two gap Q or J, any pair from any position; middle suited and unsuited connectors from LP) and jam it when you're ahead or have a big draw. That's not all of it, but it's the most striking disparity between ring and NL games/tournaments.

I play almost exclusively single-table tourneys, because A) that's all Paradise has, and B) I generally don't have the time to play a tourney with a large field. I really think NL SNGs are a losing proposition, with lots of luck factored in. I think playing limit SNGs is the way to go, if you're to play SNGs, although I wouldn't ditch NL SNGs entirely -- I'll play in one for every 10-15 limit SNGs.

[Justaloser]

I ran into this problem for a while, playing too tight.

Although you don't specify, I'm gonna guess that you're playing NL. Limit has a very different strategy. You can't play extremely tight and hope to win.

What I suggest is to loosen up a bit. Play some suited connectors and Ax suited, even out of position. The key is that you must muck unless you hit the flop GOOD!!

Hoping for the runner, runner is not the way to play. You want to flop the flush/straight or at minimum get four to it, and then stay in only if you're getting the right odds to continue.

Something else to consider is whether you continue to play extremely tight after the morons are gone. If so, that's why you're blinding out. You can't just wait for AA or KK, because later on if you over play those hands, most good players will give you the blinds and you're no better off.

[dj_jazzyjeff]

Good replies to my question so far. I play NL and Limit single-table tourneys ($10+1 mainly), and like you said, have found limit games less reliant on luck.

/forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif But what I'd really like to know is: what are the blind structures for other sites. Partypoker raises them every round (10 hands) in all tournaments (multi-,single-tables).

I'm consistently getting 4th place (SO CLOSE to the money!!) and I think that if I can find a limit game where the blind structures raised only every 15 hands I'd have a new job /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

p.s.- I agree w/ your Limit strategy to limp in early w/ anything potentially monsterous to build up the early chip lead. However, so many fish swimming along to the river end up cracking me and I end up on tilt the rest of the game.

[guppy]

I can prove that there is much more luck involved in NL tourneys: I have done much better playing them.

[XlgJoe]

You may want to try out Pokerstars. They have single and two table sit-n-go's. There structures are also much better than paradise and party.

On the down side it can take longer to fill the table before beginning. Also the players are considered to better than the other sites.

[Rickfish]

Just try an experiment - instead of trying to get the last three just think about winning it and not worry about other places. Try to be the person doing the most raising when there are 4 left.

[Justaloser]

Please let me know how you can prove there is more luck.

I feel that NL is more skillful. Being able to sidestep traps and mucking KK when flop comes AKT is not an easy thing to do.

Limit is IMO a bit more luck dependant because you've got to get more good hands to win.

They are two totally different animals and should be considered that way. It seems that a lot of people who complain about NL try to play it the same way that they would play a limit tourney (or a ring game). You need to have a different style for each, and what might be a good play in one, would be a horrible play in the other.

If you feel that your style is more suited to limit, then just play in limit tourneys. But you will find that the more skilled players will win in both (although the definition of skilled may differ in each).

[Deelah]

Pokerstars got the best players but also a great SNG-structure. Blinds raises every tenth minute. Try it!

[FeliciaLee]

I think Guppy was being sarcastic.

[FeliciaLee]

/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif I will try to help you out, but you HAVE to get rid of that picture first!!!!

I had the same problem with Party. The structure is too fast, the starting chip amount too low. I couldn't adjust, although I know there are people making money playing this tournament.

My own personal playing style dictated that I had to make a move to another site like Stars or UB. I am not the type to take huge risks, not knowing if I've got the best of it. That is what it takes with a structure like that, at Party or Paradise.

If you want to learn the proper strategy to beat those games in particular, I know that there is one, and that there are people playing those SNG's and those only. They will probably be willing to help you. I would expect much more variance in your results, of course. I would assume that losing 10 in a row would not be uncommon at all, and that on another occasion you might cash 10 in a row. You have to be a very detached person, to play through such extremes. You cannot have any emotions, or your play will suffer.

Personally, I don't think it's worth the bother. I'd rather have less variance, more play and much, much less stress. I guess I'm not looking at the bottom dollar (if I was, why would I be playing low limit SNG's all day???), but I have a good time and I enjoy what I do.

[FeliciaLee]

Lately they have been filling rather quickly! It is amazing. I didn't even have to wait ten minutes for the $20+2 !!! I think the influx of new players at most sites is filling these SNG's faster. I even regularly see the $100+9 and $300 SNG's playing. I love it!

[FeliciaLee]

Good advice /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

This worked well for me, also, and helped me break the "bubble" syndrome when I first started playing. I was always trying to wait out the bubble, instead of going for the gold. Of course, this has worked for me at a different type of SNG, with a different structure.

[FeliciaLee]

<<Pokerstars got the best players but also a great SNG-structure>>

You know, I thought this at first, too. But now that I have gotten used to the play at Stars, and adapted, I find myself saying more and more that they are the worst players in the universe!!!

Of course, this is because I am now beating them regularly, lol. It seems like my play is always getting betters, whereas theirs just stays the same, day in and day out. Mostly I play the same people over and over again. I don't know why they aren't getting any better. There are a ton of newbies, as well, so they are less predictable, but usually just as bad, if not worse. Once you know your opponents, and play dozens of SNG's with them, you find yourself saying again and again that they must be the worst player in the universe, and why do they waste all of their money at these SNG's when they never cash!

[dj_jazzyjeff]

So, I'm at a crossroads right now. I'm out of money at partypoker. Got CRACKED hard this week. How do you do at other sites Felicia in SNG-tournaments? Do you just play for fun? I enjoy playing, but I'd like it alot better if I was gettin' paid

I'm gonna try my first "real" tournament up at the Ameristar here in K.C. this week. Anyone have any real-table advice?? /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

p.s. WORLD SERIES OF POKER 1998'S ON RIGHT NOW!!
Saturday - 12 Eastern right now

[Justaloser]

Sorry, didn't see that he had his post in sarcasm mode. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[bigfishead]

I cash in 60+% of my sits. All NL. I win many of these. One must understand position and relative position very well I believe. You cant play so tight as to NEVER try to bluff os steal a few blinds. Moving up from 4th to 3rd is usually the easiest. Table tends to tighten and you can steal a few more blinds. But dont overdue it. They will get a hand or just get tired of it. I have only been knocked out 4th like twice in over 60 of these. Both times I had the best of it by far, had a shortstack, but still enough to raise a bit and got beat. Hey it happens.

I think I'd try to look at your play very closely. There may be a hole or two that needs plugging. Learn the concepts behind N/L. And I absolutely do not agree with playing more suited connectors and such as has been mentioned. Most of the players out there will just overplay their mediocre hands anyways. Take advantage of that. Dont call big raises with middle PP. Let them do that. When you do make a big set or a BB special trap'em to draw dead to an ace. they love to do that. Go back and read. Gain some confidence and play accordingly.

I use UB. You start with 1000. blinds are 5-10, 10-20, 15-30, 20-40, 30-60, 40-80, 50-100, 75-150, 100-200, 150-300, etc. Usually by this time it's down to head-up or over.
I believe skillful play gets the money.
GL

[guppy]

I'm a pretty sarcastic person, but in this case I'm not sure if I'm being sarcastic or not.

I haven't played seriously for several years, started playing online 2 weeks ago.

I am embarassed to admit that I am NOT yet beating up the low-limit games at Party that everyone here drools over, although after a few good sessions recently I am solidly in the black.

Looking over my diary I see that I've actually only played in 4 limit STTs, with two 3rd places, which is a tiny sample, and not horrible. However, I have been doing ridiculously well (considering my current skill level) in the NL/PL STTs at Party, cashing in 60%, winning over 30%, after 57 events. Since I don't entirely know what I am doing, I can only assume that 1) I have been pretty lucky, and 2) there are a lot of players in these events much more clueless than me.

[maplepig]

you may be having a bad run. Even if you are a 50% ROI player, there's still 20% chance you have a negative sum after 30 games, 10% after 50 games. Party's tournament has a bigger variance due to the bad structure. I have over 500 games played now, my stats still change quite a bit every 50 games. By the way, my last 50 games have a negative sum. You need at least 100+ games to be quite sure about where you are. I have run some simulation with a stats program, even after 1000 games, your ROI can still change as much as 20%. Here's 10 random simultation on 100 games for a 50% ROI player on $10 game, expected return is 500.
420,590,720,290,540,870,410,540,740,310
10 random simulation of 100 games for a 30% ROI player, expected return is 300
220,540,20,-60,340,350,320,260,570,-10
i hope you get the picture

[Nottom]

Party one-tables have the worst structure of any of the sites I've played on. (800 starting chips and 15/30 blinds if I recall), The other sites aren't this bad (paradise is 5/10 and T1000). I stopped playing party tourneys because the large blinds made it too much of a crapshoot, espescially if you lose a hand early and are shortstacked.

I've heard lots of good things about Pokerstars although I have never played there myself.

[cferejohn]

Pokerstars. On their sit-n-gos (available in 1 table and 2-table) you get $1500 in starting chips, and blinds raise every 10 minutes, which on-line usually means a couple times around per blind raise. For NL, the levels are:

10-20
15-30
25-50
50-100
100-200
100-200, ante 25
200-400, ante 25
300-600, ante 50
400-800, ante 50.

It goes on, but for sit-n-gos that's usually about as far as you get (if even that far). So you get 20-30 minutes of play where the blinds are small-enough that just calling pre-flop is legitimate. After 1 hour the antes are added which loosens up the table and makes stealing more important, and then 10 minutes after that you get the big jump to 200-400 which tends to weed out all the remaining small stacks very quickly, after which the blinds climb fairly slowly, allowing for a lot of play between the remaining players at the final table. The sit-n-gos do last longer than at other sites, but that's arguably good.

Anyway, I recommend it. I can't really play tournaments anywhere else any more. Good luck

Chris

[eMarkM]

I can't really play tournaments anywhere else any more

So true, so true. Once you play Stars tourneys, you'll never go back to Party/PP SNGs. The two table SNGs at Stars are my favorite SNG-style tourneys on the net. Finishing in about 90 minutes, they give you very good practice at playing short-handed, final table style of play that you'd have at the end of a larger tourney. Party and Paradise's SNGs don't give you that same experience since the blinds go up every round and its much more a crapshoot.

[Robbe]

Speaking as a novice.... I like the Party because it seems to fund my losses at Stars! I seem to be learning more at Stars, 'tho. Amend that.... Lessons that I should have learned are, um, reinforced at Stars.