20/40 Commerce - turn raises

[onegymrat]

Full game, table is terrific. Just honing my skills to see if this is proper play, based on the described opponents.

Hand 1: Solid pro TAG limps UTG, I raise to his immediate left with A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. All fold to the BB (relatively new player who gives me the gambool impression) who calls. TAG calls. Three to the flop.

FLOP: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked to me, I bet. BB holds up his cards for his wife (who's sweating him) to see, shrugs and then calls. TAG folds. Headsup.

TURN: J /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB bets. I raise. BB thinks for ten seconds and calls.

RIVER: 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB checks, I bet. BB calls.

Hand 2: Two limpers to me in LP with 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I limp along. All folded to BB who checks. Four to the flop.

FLOP: 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Tilting guy bets, MP (laggy qualities) calls, I raise. Tilting guy says, "You don't play those cards! Why are you raising?!" I shrug. BB folds. Both call. Three to the turn.

TURN: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Tilting guy checks, MP bets. I raise.

All suggestions welcome. Thank you in advance.

[sfer]

I don't much like either turn play, and I think I'd much rather fold or call the flop in hand 2 than raise. I played about 3 days of 20/40 at Commerce last March and I don't remember it being particularly aggressive, but maybe I'm mistaken.

More importantly, are the $5 chips now clay?

[onegymrat]

No clay, Dave. Still that old disgustingly slippery plastic, that is difficult to manuever when doing the old "nervous" shuffle.

[sweetjazz]

What are you trying to accomplish with the river bet in hand 1?

In hand 2, are you planning on folding if either player calls the turn raise and leads out on a non 6 or 9 river?

[CardSharpCook]

Given the reads, I like both plays. Hand 1: the shrug seems like he has a pair of 4s/2s and may give that up when you raise the turn/bet the river (particularily to save face in front of wifey).

Hand 2: I'd certainly expect LAG to raise TP on the flop instead of waiting for the turn to bet out. So the raise is charging him for his pair of 5s (much more likely, I think) and knocking out the tilter's 6 outs. If this hand didn't work out, I'd wonder about your reads.

[brettbrettr]

In hand 1, I don't really like the river bet. This guy doesn't appear to be drawing, and after he calls the turn raise, he doesn't appear to be folding.

In hand 2, I'd just call the flop. I'd prob pop the turn though, and take a fsd.

[onegymrat]

Hi Jazz,
[ QUOTE ]
What are you trying to accomplish with the river bet in hand 1?

[/ QUOTE ]With the specific mannerisms that he gave off on the flop, I put him on a weird draw or a 4 or 2. In my mind, there's just no way this guy has a jack, or else the flop would have been bet or called in a much quicker fashion. I was tremendously surprised he called the turn raise. On the river, there is no way for me to win the hand without making him lay it down. I needed to continue with a bet by representing an overpair or a jack.
[ QUOTE ]
In hand 2, are you planning on folding if either player calls the turn raise and leads out on a non 6 or 9 river?

[/ QUOTE ]No, I would call.

[CardSharpCook]

You are aware that you have nut no-pair in hand 1? I bet the river here too, because you do get a 4/2 to fold some percentage of the time (particularily live) but there is a reasonable chance that your hand is good if you check.

[onegymrat]

Hi Card Sharp,
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I'd certainly expect LAG to raise TP on the flop instead of waiting for the turn to bet out. So the raise is charging him for his pair of 5s (much more likely, I think) and knocking out the tilter's 6 outs. If this hand didn't work out, I'd wonder about your reads.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactamundo. I actually put the laggy MP bet as a pure bluff, and tilting guy on a some type of pair. There's just no way tilting guy can call here without a 9. My intention was to take the free showdown if either player, or both, called.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Jazz,
[ QUOTE ]
What are you trying to accomplish with the river bet in hand 1?

[/ QUOTE ]With the specific mannerisms that he gave off on the flop, I put him on a weird draw or a 4 or 2. In my mind, there's just no way this guy has a jack, or else the flop would have been bet or called in a much quicker fashion. I was tremendously surprised he called the turn raise. On the river, there is no way for me to win the hand without making him lay it down. I needed to continue with a bet by representing an overpair or a jack.


[/ QUOTE ]
While I agree that you probably cannot win this hand without betting, I also don't think you are going to win this hand with a bet often enough to make it worthwhile. He made the "tough call" on the turn, so I don't think he is even considering laying this hand down on the river unless a really scary card hits. Without a read to the contrary, I would check behind on the river, expecting to lose. You made a play on the turn based on a read and a belief that the combined chances of winning the hand outright and improving on the river made a raise correct. Don't throw another big bet into the pot merely out of frustration or out of some unfounded hope that the guy who just a made tough call is going to fold the river with a pair or better. (BTW, I don't think his play is necessarily inconsistent with weakly playing Jx, where x is a bad kicker.)
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 2, are you planning on folding if either player calls the turn raise and leads out on a non 6 or 9 river?

[/ QUOTE ]No, I would call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, unless you have reads that you dictate you do something differently, you're exposing yourself to putting a lot of bets in with the worst hand. I like free showdown plays a lot more when you can safely chuck your hand in the face of continued aggression. They lose a lot of their value if you plan on calling down anyway if the opponent keeps betting strongly. It's a different story if you have a solid read that both opponents would go for a C/R on the turn once they make trips. I hope you are at least folding to a turn 3-bet here, at least from MP. (If your read on the tilting guy is that he is just making crazy raises and bluffs, then calling him down is very sensible.)

I think in both hands the profitability of your turn raises is diminished significantly by your plans for the river play.

[onegymrat]

Hi again Jazz,

Great thoughts and well said, thank you. I agree with you about Hand 1, where the river bet may not be such a great idea. I am my worst critic.

On hand 2, it's just so difficult to put these type of players (tilting guy who is, on his best day, a mediocre player, and laggy guy who is waiting for a NL table) on specific hands. They were being rarely challenged in this game, mainly because they kept getting headsup. I thought that this specific moment was best to do so.

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi again Jazz,

Great thoughts and well said, thank you. I agree with you about Hand 1, where the river bet may not be such a great idea. I am my worst critic.

On hand 2, it's just so difficult to put these type of players (tilting guy who is, on his best day, a mediocre player, and laggy guy who is waiting for a NL table) on specific hands. They were being rarely challenged in this game, mainly because they kept getting headsup. I thought that this specific moment was best to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2... I would expect LAG to CR the turn if his top pair just turned into a set. Therefore, I think calling down is OK.

Hand 1... Can't imagine you are getting this guy to fold enough to warrant a bet. Just check behind and save a bet.

[andyfox]

First hand: In my experience, a guy shows his hand to his sweating wife, and calls the flop, he's calling you all the way down. If he had crap, he wouldn't show it to her if he didn't fold, he'd be too afraid/embarrassed. He wants to show her, in case he loses, that he has a hand which has some value, he's got to call. Also, turn raises work (in the sense of getting an opponent to fold) when the turn card puts a flush draw on board.

Second hand: That turn 9 would seem a good card for you. There was no reraise from the original bettor preflop and one wouldn't think MP has a 9 since he only called (twice) on the flop. I'd prefer if the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif had come, but I guess I don't have that option.

What were you going to do if somebody 3-bets? And if one (or both) call, what about the river?

[onegymrat]

Hi Andy,
[ QUOTE ]
What were you going to do if somebody 3-bets? And if one (or both) call, what about the river?

[/ QUOTE ]I would have folded to a 3-bet for sure. I would also check the river should one or both called.

I didn't think my river bet for hand #1 was good either. Just needed to get reassurance about that play.

[onegymrat]

Hand 1: BB calls my bluff bet with my nut no-pair and I say, "You got me. Ace king." He looks at my hand, then his hand and opens A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/club.gif and my hand is good. I have no idea what happened.

Hand 2:
TURN: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Tilting guy checks, MP bets. I raise. Tilting guy mucks quickly. MP thinks for a while and looks at his cards for about ten seconds. Then he mucks.

Thank you for all the advice.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: BB calls my bluff bet with my nut no-pair and I say, "You got me. Ace king." He looks at my hand, then his hand and opens A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/club.gif and my hand is good. I have no idea what happened.


[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, heh. Good value bet. I think this, nevertheless, illustrates why checking behind is best. You assume that after BB calls your turn raise, you are behind more than 50% of the time (probably closer to 90% of the time...fortunately BB was a horrible calling station and didn't have a hand that beats yours). Once BB made the turn call, he can't get away from his hand, even when it is ATo.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2:
TURN: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Tilting guy checks, MP bets. I raise. Tilting guy mucks quickly. MP thinks for a while and looks at his cards for about ten seconds. Then he mucks.

Thank you for all the advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice that this hand worked out for you, but you can see by how the other players played the hand how much strength you represented. (Presumably, you had a solid tight image coming into this hand.) Thus, had someone continued on in this hand AND bet into again (either 3-betting the turn or betting out on the river), you are almost certainly beat. I'd only call another bet if I thought the other player was badly tilting or liked to make tricky, unorthodox plays.