ATo Flops Three Tens...

[TheHammer24]

I'm not sure if raising the flop was better or waiting until the turn was best. MP1 and MP2 are Loose Passive, but capable of bluffing for no reason in a bad spot. Other player is average. MP1 actually baffles me, he is 50/.5/.5 but a 3BB/100 winner over 500 hands. He's on my buddy list, but never seems to lose.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

[damaniac]

500 hands is of course miniscule. And easy flop call going for overcalls. Given that you have position, I kind of like calling the turn and raising/betting the river. OTOH, you get to knock out a decent number of gutshots and charge any BDflush draw that peeled, and if MP2 is just FOS he'll probably give up by the river anyway. So to answer your question, I don't know.

[krimson]

I think I would favour a raise on the flop rather than the turn. The turn raise is announcing your T, a flop raise is a bit more questionable and might get played back at. Plus the odds are better for people to call 2 on the flop.

I think overcalling both streets and raising the river would also be okay, and probably the line I would have taken if I was in the hand and forced to that decision.

I think you should raise on the flop here, rather than waiting for the turn. Raising on the turn with flopped trips is considered the "standard" play, as most players would wait until the turn to reveal the strength of their hand. If you raise on the flop, it may look like a bluff/steal attempt, as most players wouldn't expect someone who flopped trips to come out betting/raising. You may be able to trap all 3 players for 2 bets on the flop, maybe 3 or 4 if the original flop bettor re-raises you.

By waiting until the turn, you are driving 2 of your 3 opponents out of the pot with your raise. Unless BB and MP1 are really loose, they'll fold to 2 BBs on the turn. However, if you raise on the flop and build the pot, BB and MP1 may decide to continue with their hand b/c the pot has grown so large.

Another possibility, which I state as something to think about rather than what I'd do in most situtations, if wait until the river to raise your trips. There is a flush draw out there on the turn, and it's possible that one of your opponents has a flush draw, but other than that, you aren't losing out on much by waiting until the river to raise. By simply calling the turn, you may get BB and/or MP1 to call MP2's turn bet. Then, if MP2 bets again on the river, you can raise, thus making the same from MP2 as if you had bet the turn, but with the additional turn bets that BB and MP1 put into the pot. Furthermore, BB and/or MP1 may, having already called this far, decide to call 2 bets on the river and get to the showdown. Something to consider...

[damaniac]

The reason I dislike raising the flop is that while people may not give you credit for a T, they aren't calling two bets with crap that is drawing almost dead KJ or 55 or what have you, that they would often call 1 bet for. You calling looks more like UI AK/AQ or something than a slowplayed T, since that's how a lot of people would play that hand and is more commonly raised preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I dislike raising the flop is that while people may not give you credit for a T, they aren't calling two bets with crap that is drawing almost dead KJ or 55 or what have you, that they would often call 1 bet for. You calling looks more like UI AK/AQ or something than a slowplayed T, since that's how a lot of people would play that hand and is more commonly raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, especially at small stakes. Players who call a raise preflop will often call 2 bets on the flop, especially if they have overcards, a pocket pair or an Ace. A flop like this (T-T-6) is very likely to have missed everybody, so a poor play holding any Ace, a pocket pair, or two overcards may believe that if they can hit one of their overcards on the turn or make trips, they will take the lead, or at the very least, will call down the hand.

While I agree that sometimes, a player who is willing to call 2 bets on the flop may have a good hand or a good draw, it depends on the players you're going up against, as there are those out there who will call 2 bets on the flop with subpar holdings.

[damaniac]

Ok we're just thinking of different games. I'm thinking of almost approaching the neighborhood of decent players at my local live 5/10 game or even some of the looser 5/10 or 3/6 party games, you seem (from my memory of games) to be refencing 2/4 live/online games or less, where people will routinely call many bets with absolutely nothing, instead of calling only 1 bet with nothing or 2 or more with something weak.

[housenuts]

i don't really like raising this hand preflop. in fact i probably just fold it. is that a debate, or is it ok?

[TheHammer24]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok we're just thinking of different games. I'm thinking of almost approaching the neighborhood of decent players at my local live 5/10 game or even some of the looser 5/10 or 3/6 party games, you seem (from my memory of games) to be refencing 2/4 live/online games or less, where people will routinely call many bets with absolutely nothing, instead of calling only 1 bet with nothing or 2 or more with something weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not posting at Fantasy Hockey Cafe are you? I think someone has the same screen name over there. And if this is the case.....it's a really small world.

[jackdaniels]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't really like raising this hand preflop. in fact i probably just fold it. is that a debate, or is it ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you housenuts. I don't see raising this hand after 2 EP limpers. First in, yeah, but after 2 limpers? I would fold it and wait for a better spot to get my money in.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with you housenuts. I don't see raising this hand after 2 EP limpers. First in, yeah, but after 2 limpers? I would fold it and wait for a better spot to get my money in.

[/ QUOTE ]

ATo is far better than most of what these loose-passive players are limping.

-McGee

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't really like raising this hand preflop. in fact i probably just fold it. is that a debate, or is it ok?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm with you housenuts. I don't see raising this hand after 2 EP limpers. First in, yeah, but after 2 limpers? I would fold it and wait for a better spot to get my money in.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is definitely a good enough hand to value-raise to weak limpers with. What would sway this decision one way or the other would be the qualities of the players behind Hero and in the blinds.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if raising the flop was better or waiting until the turn was best. MP1 and MP2 are Loose Passive, but capable of bluffing for no reason in a bad spot. Other player is average. MP1 actually baffles me, he is 50/.5/.5 but a 3BB/100 winner over 500 hands. He's on my buddy list, but never seems to lose.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

for what it's worth, I'd play AA and KK the same way with this flop and your position. JJ and QQ I'd raise just to get some random a-x or k-x to fold or call 2.

raising this flop is not good becuase no one will call 2, unless they have a T.

Raising the turn is good becuase if someone picked up a flush draw, now they have to pay, it you raise the river, and they have missed this draw, they won't call then.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't really like raising this hand preflop. in fact i probably just fold it. is that a debate, or is it ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think ATo is too good of a hand to fold in this situation. I would call.

[W. Deranged]

Never mind I thought the hand was ATs...

I throw away ATo in the three early positions, but here I think it's a raise. Folding is not good, in my opinion, as the limpers will often be playing inferior hands. Raising is particularly good if you have tags on your left that will fold hands you don't want in there against you and allow you to buy the button.

[W. Deranged]

Basically this hand sucks because you have such awful relative position.

In general, though, I think it's better to raise the flop, as your opponents might call two cold on the flop with marginal stuff but will never call two cold on the turn. Raising the turn even gives the flop bettor an easy opportunity to fold. It also might slow down an opponent with the case T and a weaker kicker, whereas raising the flop encourages them to "trap" by calling the flop and raising the turn, giving you an opportunity to make a really sexy turn three-bet.

[damaniac]

No, posting from law school in Michigan. Not sure where the Fantasy Hockey Cafe is (judging from your avatar, maybe Pittsburgh?).

[TheHammer24]

[ QUOTE ]
No, posting from law school in Michigan. Not sure where the Fantasy Hockey Cafe is (judging from your avatar, maybe Pittsburgh?).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's a fantasy hockey forum

For those who say raise the flop, what do you do on the turn and river afterwards?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
For those who say raise the flop, what do you do on the turn and river afterwards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm... bet...