some observations about the split

[Wynton]

Since the split, I’ve been reading at both MHUSH and SHUSH, and have a few observations.

First, it appears that the split has been great for those long-time posters who play at 10/20 and above, as MHUSH is plainly much more streamlined and consistently substantive.

Second, it seems that SHUSH has attracted many low-limit and micro-limit players who never used to post at the old HUSH. Thus, the split also seems to be working well for those who play up to 3/6, and for those who are relatively new to short-handed play.

But I feel that I may be in a group of players that don’t fit very well into either place now, i.e., 5/10 players who are no longer beginners at six-max, yet are far from experts. SHUSH, at least at these early stages, seems overwhelmingly full of beginner-type threads, with submissions by relative six-max beginners. There may be some thought-provoking discussions there, but they are pretty hard to find.

I realize that the decision was made to make MHUSH 10/20 and higher because most felt that the 5/10 GAME bore more resemblance to the lower levels than the higher levels. But from what I’m seeing so far, the PEOPLE who post about 5/10 hands tend to more in common (experience-wise) with the people who post about 10/20 hands, than those who post about 3/6 or lower. Perhaps this is just the way things seem to me from my own myopic point of view, though.

Anyway, I just wanted to re-open the discussion about where the split really should be, now that we have the benefit of seeing the effect of the split. Also, I’m curious whether anyone else feels somewhat displaced by the split.

[sthief09]

making hand posts is overrated, and thats the only area where anything has changed for 5/10 players

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I’m curious whether anyone else feels somewhat displaced by the split.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've noticed the same things, but it doesn't really bother me much. I will probably largely ignore SHUSH and spend more time here, as I'm hoping to move up to 10/20 anyways.

EDIT: By "largely ignore," I mean I will be much less apt to read posts by unknowns in SHUSH than I will in MUSH.

Didnt really change much for me. I dont post many hands anyway. Seems like small stakes is the new micro limit forum though. I recognice a ton of people who probably just lurked before. Thats very positive.

[TheMetetron]

I haven't stepped foot in SHUSH since the split, but I'll have to go check it out to see what you mean. I had a feeling this would happen after the split.

[Surfbullet]

Hey Wynton,

I sympathize with your situation. Hopefully you wont feel as ostracized as you do now after things settle down a bit.

IMO, it is up to the veteran 3/6 and 5/10 HUSHers to make SSHUSH a high-content discussion and not just a 6max beginner forum. Lots of players have come over and there appears to be a ton of discussion going on between them, which was one reason the forum was created. I can't speak for other HUSH veterans, I open up the SSHUSH forum a few times a day - but i'm not going to dive into some random guys 1/2 post. If I see you, or DMBFan, or Stellar, et al has made a new post i'll check it out and give my input. I still think there's plenty of discussion to be had.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from replying to threads here - your comments are always well-thought out and you will probably stand to learn just as much, if not more.

Let me know if there's anything I can do.

Surf

[kidcolin]

I was on vacation for a week, so I just came back and noticed the split. I was concerned about the very thing Wynton mentions, but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing.

Right now I'm a 5/10 player, and I'll probably lurk a lot in MHUSH (and reply once in a while, too) to learn more advanced topics to improve my game.

I still plan on spending time in SSHUSH, though, because really a little review never hurts, you know? I think reading and replying to some simple, basic questions can have a pretty positive effect on your game, as it will really help ingrain some basic concepts into your game. Lots of times we say we know these simple concepts, but don't apply them consistently. I know for me that's one of the things holding me back from hitting the next level.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
I was on vacation for a week, so I just came back and noticed the split. I was concerned about the very thing Wynton mentions, but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing.

Right now I'm a 5/10 player, and I'll probably lurk a lot in MHUSH (and reply once in a while, too) to learn more advanced topics to improve my game.

I still plan on spending time in SSHUSH, though, because really a little review never hurts, you know? I think reading and replying to some simple, basic questions can have a pretty positive effect on your game, as it will really help ingrain some basic concepts into your game. Lots of times we say we know these simple concepts, but don't apply them consistently. I know for me that's one of the things holding me back from hitting the next level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all this, and to add to it I would say those of us at this awkward adolescent stage of our development really have no choice but to lurk/post on both boards, regardless of where the split is. I would say if you are good enough to ignore SS, it's time to move up already.

[Victor]

i think the split is awesome.

no more sifting through .5/1 threads. no more weekly "need a preflop chart" threads.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
no more weekly "need a preflop chart" threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry.

[xCEO]

I agree. I understand that the split is great for 10/20 and higher stakes players but for 5/10$ players it's terrible.

[MrBig30]

When this split was first discussed I played 5/10. Now I have played 100K 10/20 and have no plans to ever move down again. The same could be true for you experienced 5/10 players in a few months. Really the difference is more a bankroll issue than anything else, no matter what some say...

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the split is awesome.

no more sifting through .5/1 threads. no more weekly "need a preflop chart" threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I love this forum.

I will still reply once in a while to SSHUSH posts despite the fact I will probably hate that forum.

[ddubois]

You could just post your 5/10 hands here replacing the "5/10" text with "10/20". /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MrBig30]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
You could just post your 5/10 hands here replacing the "5/10" text with "10/20". /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Back in the "glory days" of HUSH (yes, that is what I will call them hereforth), in one of the countless posts on the split, I suggested doing just that: but some killjoy pointed out that I might get inaccurate advice, more appropriate for 10/20 than 5/10.

If I really wanted to pull this off, I'd have to start posting only well-played hands, so as to lend some plausibility to the claim that I'd actually have moved up; I'm not sure I can find enough well-played hands to make that claim stand up.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think the split is awesome.

no more sifting through .5/1 threads. no more weekly "need a preflop chart" threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I love this forum.

I will still reply once in a while to SSHUSH posts because of the fact I will probably hate that forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

let's be honest

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You could just post your 5/10 hands here replacing the "5/10" text with "10/20". /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Back in the "glory days" of HUSH (yes, that is what I will call them hereforth), in one of the countless posts on the split, I suggested doing just that: but some killjoy pointed out that I might get inaccurate advice, more appropriate for 10/20 than 5/10.

If I really wanted to pull this off, I'd have to start posting only well-played hands, so as to lend some plausibility to the claim that I'd actually have moved up; I'm not sure I can find enough well-played hands to make that claim stand up.

[/ QUOTE ]

be careful that the difference in blind structure doesnt give you away a la this guy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4028598&an=0&page=0&gone w=1#UNREAD)

[joker122]

still, i think 5/10 and 10/20 are really different games. the difference is more pronounced in probably any other 2 limits with 1:2 limit ratio (i.e. betweeen 1/2 and 2/4, or 15/30 and 30/60). so while the 5/10 posters might be suffering a bit from the split, there's no question that 5/10 belongs in SHUSH, simply because it plays much more like 3/6 than it does 10/20.

[Wynton]

Wow, Jba, that is verry funny. I'll try not to get caught.

[etizzle]

in the time it took you to write this post you couldve taken a shot at 10/20 or 15/30, run hot, and moved up permanently.

[Wynton]

But Joker, part of my original point was that, even if 5/10 plays more like 3/6 than 10/20 - which is at least debatable - the people here who post about 5/10 seem to have more in common with the people who post about 10/20, than those who post about 3/6; and those similarities are more important when it comes to conducting good discussions.

Besides, once reads or stars are provided, it often makes no difference what limit the games are at, for purposes of analysis.

[Spicymoose]

I am a 5/10 player, and I love the split. I am trying to move up to 10/20, and this forum is great for me. I don't usually post many hands, but I try to respond to as many hands of other people as I can. By being able to read the hands here, I see what may be "standard", and how to improve upon that standard. I still reply to SHUSH though, just to make sure that my replies are consistant with the majority.

If you are concerned about not being able to post hands here, I would not worry about it all that much. You can still get good replies at SHUSH, although maybe not as good. If you feel you are pretty good at 5/10, and have a good bankroll, I would suggest the following (which is what I have been doing).

Take a shot at the 10/20, but only do it 1-tabling, and table/seat select to the max. You can almost always find a game that will be better than your regular 5/10 game. You will have a better edge, and you can focus better, since you will be one tabling. Make a video of this single table, and post it here. Way better than posting hand histories in my opinion, and you get to take shots at a higher level.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
the people here who post about 5/10 seem to have more in common with the people who post about 10/20, than those who post about 3/6;

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean in terms of experience and/or quality of analysis, right? if this were the case, than those 5/10 players would be playing 10/20...no?

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are concerned about not being able to post hands here

I would suggest the following (which is what I have been doing).

Take a shot at the 10/20

Make a video of this single table, and post it here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just what I need: another reason to play above my head.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the people here who post about 5/10 seem to have more in common with the people who post about 10/20, than those who post about 3/6;

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean in terms of experience and/or quality of analysis, right? if this were the case, than those 5/10 players would be playing 10/20...no?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think that necessarily follows, even though it sounds right. Just based on my own observations, it seems to me that there are many 5/10 players who have more than a rudimentary understanding of the six-max game, even though they may not have played long enough to build up their br to 10/20 levels.

And some of us are much better posters than players. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are concerned about not being able to post hands here

I would suggest the following (which is what I have been doing).

Take a shot at the 10/20

Make a video of this single table, and post it here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just what I need: another reason to play above my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't suggest this for everyone. I suggest this if you have the bankroll, think you perhaps may be good enough, and want to take relaxed "safe" shots. Otherwise, you should be fine with the advice given in SHUSH, and you should be reading and posting in MUSH regularly.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think that necessarily follows, even though it sounds right. Just based on my own observations, it seems to me that there are many 5/10 players who have more than a rudimentary understanding of the six-max game, even though they may not have played long enough to build up their br to 10/20 levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

the thing is I think you just proved the opposite point than you wanted to.

the fact is if you start playing 5/10 with a 500bb roll and beat it at a 2bb/100 clip, it only takes 25k hands to build up a 500bb roll for 10/20. There are many many players with well over 25k hands at 5/10, this fact I think points to the difficulty in moving to 10/20, which points to the large differences in games.

[MrBig30]

Nice. I was about to post the same. If you beat 5/10 for 2BB/100 while 4-tabling you could make a 5/10 BR into a 10/20 BR in 2-3 weeks easily (with decent luck).

So anybody who beats the 5/10 soundly shouldnt have the BR problem (again, if they are not too unlucky).

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is I think you just proved the opposite point than you wanted to.

the fact is if you start playing 5/10 with a 500bb roll and beat it at a 2bb/100 clip, it only takes 25k hands to build up a 500bb roll for 10/20. There are many many players with well over 25k hands at 5/10, this fact I think points to the difficulty in moving to 10/20, which points to the large differences in games.

[/ QUOTE ]
25k hands is 2-3 months for me, IF I decide to leave everything in the br. There are plenty of good posters who simply don't have the time to play many hands a month.

Anyways, I don't think the split is a big enough deal to worry about things like realigning it. I expect the cream to rise to the top of both forums, as it typically does. It may just take a little more wading in SHUSH.

[Subfallen]

The 10/20 is a very beatable game...ask baronzeus for confirmation. If I can play 10/20, anybody can play 10/20.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice. I was about to post the same. If you beat 5/10 for 2BB/100 while 4-tabling you could make a 5/10 BR into a 10/20 BR in 2-3 weeks easily (with decent luck).

So anybody who beats the 5/10 soundly shouldnt have the BR problem (again, if they are not too unlucky).

[/ QUOTE ]

Not everyone plays that many hands. I work full-time, and only squeeze in about an hour a day; and I don't have a monitor good enough to play 4 tables at a time. So even if I don't run bad -- which we all know is a crazy assumption -it could take me quite a while to get the proper br for 10/20.

But I just wanted to point out that there is a downside to the split, at least for some of us, even if it is temporary.

[7ontheline]

I was a >2 BB/100 winner at 5/10 and it took me MONTHS to build the bankroll to get to 10/20 because I am so busy with work. It didn't help that my first shot at 10/20 sent me back to 5/10 in flames.

BTW, I LOVE the forum split. The MHUSH forum is so high-quality right now.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think the split is awesome.

no more sifting through .5/1 threads. no more weekly "need a preflop chart" threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I love this forum.

I will still reply once in a while to SSHUSH posts because of the fact I will probably hate that forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

let's be honest

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, you are probably right. It's therapeutic to get frustration out somewhere /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tolbiny]

"but some killjoy pointed out that I might get inaccurate advice, more appropriate for 10/20 than 5/10."

10/20 game that is playing like a 5/10. We will all get it, except for the Mods who are sofa king we todd did anyway.

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Wynton,

I sympathize with your situation. Hopefully you wont feel as ostracized as you do now after things settle down a bit.

IMO, it is up to the veteran 3/6 and 5/10 HUSHers to make SSHUSH a high-content discussion and not just a 6max beginner forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, just so long as you add "and most importantly, the moderators".

I think SS HUSH is pretty ugly right now, and I think that it's a lot worse than pre-split because more of the better posters totally ignore it now. I'd hope that those people with enough passion to serve as mods are willing to step up and really work to help guide these new posters.

(I think attempting to implement at least a 5:1 reply to new post ratio would be fantastic).

[Surfbullet]

hey Dids,

I agree with you. I check out SSHUSH multiple times a day. MrWookie and StellarWind have just been made mods there too which will help as well.

But honestly, i'm not going to reply to Joe Schmoe's 0.50/1 preflop post - there's a whole community building there that is taking care of it wonderfully. I will, however, open up a post from a regular and see if I have any advice to offer.

Surf

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
making hand posts is overrated, and thats the only area where anything has changed for 5/10 players

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Josh.

At 10/20 and above (and this pretty much starts at 5/10) the bottom line is the vast majority of your learning you have to do on your own.

Also, there is nothing stopping a 5/10 player or even a 1/2 player from participating in discussions at MHUSH. You can probably learn a lot from that as long as you're careful not to misapply it.

[B00T]

I have been at 5-10 since Feb. I have played 165k hands there. My first 80k hands were at a rate of .69BB/100. My last 80k hands are 1.03BB/100. I also 8 table so thats at least half the reason my winrate is nothing goregous.

I have the bankroll for 10-20, I am just scared of the swings. I have taken some shots at 10-20 (only 2-3 tabling) and at 3.84BB/100 over 9k hands. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Come December 1st, I am gonna make the jump full-time to 10-20 and just commence my naive 8 tabling ways and pray I dont get crushed.

The biggest reason for this is because of the forum split. I feel if I can learn more in a more signal less noise ratio, I'll be ok. The new SHUSH makes me want to jump ship from there and actually try and get better.

After reading SHUSH for the last couple of days, I feel out of place there. It makes me sad I am still where I am at in my career. I look forward to the dozens of flames my hand posts will garner as they will be played poorly. I hope you are all ready to take B00T's L00T.

I think honestly, I am looking for a reason to stay at 5-10. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[scotty34]

I was a micro regular for quite some time, and that got me to the point where I could comfortably beat 2/4 and lower, as well as 1/2 6m. For some reason, I found it hard to leave and start in SSH or HUSH more as I moved up to 3/6, as it just felt like my 'home.'

I finally was able to make the move to HUSH as my main forum once I got a little further into 3/6 6m. I must say my game improved by leaps and bounds in the first month. I would revisit the micros from time to time, and just got bored because I could rarely find anything of worthwhile content.

I am finding that after the HUSH split, SSHUSH is becoming very similar to the micro forum in terms of content. A lot of .5/1 and 1/2 posts, and yes, your standard PF and stats questions. As a 5/10 player, I find this kind of too bad, as I don't think I can learn as much there as I could from HUSH. I also agree that MHUSH usually deals with posts a little beyond the scope of 5/10. I do feel somewhat out of place.

I think my best plan will just to be to try and lurk MHUSH mostly, just because there are so many good posters here. I think I learn the most from just reading the threads anyways - most of my hand posts just involve some slightly unusual line that felt good at the time and gets proven suboptimal.

[ QUOTE ]
I was a micro regular for quite some time, and that got me to the point where I could comfortably beat 2/4 and lower, as well as 1/2 6m. For some reason, I found it hard to leave and start in SSH or HUSH more as I moved up to 3/6, as it just felt like my 'home.'

I finally was able to make the move to HUSH as my main forum once I got a little further into 3/6 6m. I must say my game improved by leaps and bounds in the first month. I would revisit the micros from time to time, and just got bored because I could rarely find anything of worthwhile content.

I am finding that after the HUSH split, SSHUSH is becoming very similar to the micro forum in terms of content. A lot of .5/1 and 1/2 posts, and yes, your standard PF and stats questions. As a 5/10 player, I find this kind of too bad, as I don't think I can learn as much there as I could from HUSH. I also agree that MHUSH usually deals with posts a little beyond the scope of 5/10. I do feel somewhat out of place.

I think my best plan will just to be to try and lurk MHUSH mostly, just because there are so many good posters here. I think I learn the most from just reading the threads anyways - most of my hand posts just involve some slightly unusual line that felt good at the time and gets proven suboptimal.

[/ QUOTE ]
My feelings exactly. But lurking is great. Just answer the post in your head and scroll down for the key.

[kiddo]

As I see it, the only post a 5/10 cant do is: "I just sat down in my regular 5/10 and an unknown...."

There is a difference between players at 5/10 and at 10/20. I have heard A TON of 5/10 players that wants to know the difference in game structure between 5/10 and 10/20. They can discuss this forever, they want to know excatly how an "unknown" plays at 10/20.

A good 10/20 has reached the level of thinking where he knows that if he sits down in a 20/40 or 30/60 SH game with a fixed idea about how the others will play, he better not sit down at all.

Turning unknowns into knowns ans act on it is the problem.

[stigmata]

Wynton, you were a valued contributor in the old-HUSH and were allways asking interesting/challenging questions. There is obviously no problem with anyone posting on MHUSH, and your posts would be welcome.

In fact, I'm not that bothered if a 5/10 post gets made here, as long as it is a concept relevant to the mid-limits. For example TAG v TAG blind stealing. Conversely, some 10/20 (and higher) hands could well be posted in SHUSH. I'm not sure if the moderators agree, but as long as descretion is used I don't see why it's a problem in the right situation.

I guess what I'm getting at is that players such as yourself should probably be straddling the two forums and actively contributing to both.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, I'm not that bothered if a 5/10 post gets made here, as long as it is a concept relevant to the mid-limits. For example TAG v TAG blind stealing. Conversely, some 10/20 (and higher) hands could well be posted in SHUSH. I'm not sure if the moderators agree, but as long as descretion is used I don't see why it's a problem in the right situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

So far as mod, I've received one msg about changing/fixing something or whatever. I'm fine with that, I want to basically be a mod of the people and act as an in-between to help make that happen. So, I think just type out the hand, by hand, and don't say the limit, if it happens to be a 5/10 hand but you think is appropriate for here. If people think the hand sucks and shouldn't be posted here, speak up or PM the mods. I'd almost prefer the forum modded by the entire community rather than 3 people simply throwing down the gauntlet and making choices. But that's just what I think, and will wait to hear what Josh and Surf gotta say.

[Wynton]

Thanks for being so receptive, everyone. One of my concerns definitely was the ability to post more abstract or theoretical questions, which I didn't think would stimulate much at SHUSH. So it's great to know I can pose suck questions here.

Incidentally, I noticed that - while we all know that MHUSH is supposed to be about 10/20 and higher - that is not actually mentioned anywhere that I can see (unlike the links to some other places here). If the link to MHUSH ever contains such a notice (and maybe it shouldn't), perhaps it could state something like "10/20 and advanced concepts," while the link to SHUSH could say "limits up to 5/10, and beginner concepts."

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
MHUSH.... "10/20 and advanced concepts," while the link to SHUSH could say "limits up to 5/10, and beginner concepts."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definately how I would like to envisage it.

I definately think some of the more abstract/theoretical posts would be better suited -- and get better responses -- in this forum. Whilst sometimes they can be percieved as begginers concepts, they definately encourage debate and can make you question and re-evaluate your basic assumptions.

In contrast, the SHUSH forum should be more about ABC type hands and basic strategy (whatever limit is involved), and those rare advanced concepts which chiefly apply at small stakes.

[tinhat]

I liked the post and most of the replies; and I honestly sympathize with Wynton and the others losing their old home - trust me, as a ml/ss 6m player when the old setup existed I know firsthand what it's like to have no place to go. And the faint tinge of condescension in the thread doesn't bother me - except tor those evidently competent in 10/20+ at birth, you guys all made the effort, know your [censored] and are entitled to be proud of that. Big brothers are always trying to ditch their little brother.

But I think what's mostly overlooked is that the number of players displaced by the split (IMO) is VASTLY exceeded by the number of players formerly consigned to limbo because the old HUSH ignored them (for the most part; and that's not criticism or being judgemental - it's just the way it was).

I lurked in HUSH for months reading posts that had nothing to do with my simpleton level(s); but always admired the level of discourse. For my money, 2p2 is one of the most amazing collections of poker thinkers anyone could find anywhere; and from what I saw a fair number gathered in HUSH.

So I don't want SHUSH to be micros II but when you consider the numbers of ppl, our lower skill levels and understanding, what else could the outcome possibly be? IMM nothing can alter these simple facts; SHUSH by implication/definition can't be a pre-split HUSH-lite. Should they have left the old HUSH and made a "micros/ss 6m"? Maybe. Maybe someone will decide to undo this someday; maybe they won't.

Like I said, I feel bad for the ppl displaced, and the loss of posters, etc. But in the end, all things considered, am (personally) happy with the trade-offs since it finally means a place for the swarm of unwashed to gather instead of spending all our time with our noses pressed against the glass looking in at the old HUSH...

Mike

PS Personally, I am trying to become a better player, same as all you guys; it's why I'm here at all. So I know any of the kindheated here would be immensely appreciated occassionally stopping in to share some of the wisdom your predecessors shared with you.