Vegas pro berated me for this hand...what do you think?

[skp]

15-30

I am in the sb with Q6 offsuit against a bb who doesn't chop.

I call (raise better?). He checks.

Flop: Q97 rainbow.

I checkcall

Turn: 8 putting two of a suit on the board

I bet. He raises. I call.

River: off suit ten giving me the idiot straight.

I bet and he calls. I show the straight and he shows QT for top two.

Did we both play the hand properly or was the Vegas pro right when he said "F*ck! keep playing like that buddy...the ATM ain't too far away"...heh

[mike l.]

"Did we both play the hand properly or was the Vegas pro right when he said "F*ck! keep playing like that buddy...the ATM ain't too far away"...heh"

mason is a pretty crass mean fellow sometimes but dont let it get you down..

[Ed Miller]

I'm going to use my knowledge of prior probabilities and Bayesian analysis to come to the conclusion that the pro hadn't showered in days.

[skp]

x

[bernie]

the vegas pro is an idiot for making the remark.

never ceases to amaze and amuse me when a 'pro' doesnt know how to act like one. or maybe he wasnt actually a pro.

just tell him since you could see the river card before the flop, you knew you had him wired.

b

[Diplomat]

My typical response to this comment is to say "Ok, good, you know your way then. You brought your visa, right?"

I thought this one up on my way to the cash machine by the elevators at the HIB. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

-Diplomat

[Ulysses]

Did we both play the hand properly or was the Vegas pro right when he said "F*ck! keep playing like that buddy...the ATM ain't too far away"...heh

I think you played it well. I can see cases for betting out on the flop and/or going for a turn checkraise, but I think you played it fine.

I think the pro played it fine post-flop, but think he should have raised pre-flop.

[PokerPrince]

I doubt he's a pro if he acts that idiotic at the table. Berating or 'teaching' a player how to play a hand is not professional poker. Use the old classic poker line next time someone berates you at the table: "Shhhhhhh, I'm busy stacking your chips."

PokerPrince

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi SKP:

You should point out to him that in most cases Vegas pros who only play $15-$30 do so because they can't beat the higher limits for very much. Thus he probably doesn't play that well.

As for your hand, you played it fine.

Best wishes,
Mason

[skp]

Heh...good line...

See my Vegas trip report post on the news and views Forum. I am amazed by how many of these Vegas locals know not how to treat bad players (obviously, this guy considered me to be one)

[Rick Nebiolo]

skp,

Maybe you could have checkraised the flop or turn but otherwise everything seems OK to me.

The Vegas pro should have raised BTF and it isn't close. Being an [censored] with the comment on the river is the official call sign of the struggling Vegas pro who generally has 20% of his net worth on the table at any given time. That tends to make them iritable.

~ Rick

[baseball38]

Tell him to go get F***ed. He is just bent because he lost. Heck if his hand was that great he should have raised pre-flop. That is just my opinion.

baseball38 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[Zeno]

Having someone berate you is not enjoyable. I have been viciously berated at the poker table a few times. I have found that complete silence is best.

In fact, silence speaks much more eloquently than any witty retort that you could come up with, in my opinion.

-Zeno

[CreamPuff]

I think you played this hand post-flop, very very good.

Concerning preflop:

I can't believe the "Pro" didn't raise your limp.

And concerning your limp, Im not sure I like
calling here vs. a "Pro"...I would say it was a
-EV play vs a typical pro, because a pro will
raise with a wide variety of hands...

Maybe you knew this guys tendencies..and know he
doesnt raise so much in this spot..in that case
I'll swing it back to a good call.

And Im assuming he got on your case for your preflop
call..Cause I can't imagine it being anything else.
Of course you'd hate to point out to him how bad
he played his hand preflop...But glad you
stuck it to him on the river.

[inkstain]

[A9suited]

nt

[Tommy Angelo]

"he said "F*ck! keep playing like that buddy...the ATM ain't too far away"...heh"

What happened next? Did you react in any way? And if so, how?



Tommy

[Broyle Dunson]

Hi,this is the first time I havent agreed in whole with an answer of yours.#1 hes probably not a pro or even a good player, but not for the reason you said,in fact your advice of making an antagonistic remark in kind may actually start a problem at the table and bring the game to a stop,with a player about to go on tilt,I want that tilting wanna be to get cards.hes a bad player because of his comment .That in and of itself is indicitive of a lousy player and thats a play that decreases his win rate if he even has one.not a pro in my book.as for playing 15/30 ALOT of 30/60 day players sit in the 15/30 because the games have been SUPER GOOD lately at the Bellagio..Broyle

[bobgreen]

It would be nice if berating and insulting were a little less prevalent. I've responded by asking, with a respectful and sincere demeanor, what I did wrong; how should I have played it. This may awaken the berater to the fact that his comments might improve his opponents' play (I doubt that his type is motivated by altruism). It also may give you a line on his thinking.

[VeryTnA]

"playing like that buddy...the ATM ain't too far away"...heh"
<p>
My reply would have been: COOL....I didn't know you guys have one of the "NEW" ATM's that accept deposits.

[bigfishead]

; )

[bigfishead]

This is a 2 chip 3 chip blind structure with a player that doesnt chop. (probably doesnt even know why he doesnt chop).
EASY call pre-flop. You played hand out just fine.

[inkstain]

Being a "pro" does not necessarily mean "plays good" or good at what they do. It just means a person who has chosen to do it as a profession (as in, as a way of living). Obviously, unskilled "pros" don't make it that long.

[John Ho]

Mason,

Not to be a pain in the ass but couldn't someone who plays the $300 or $1000 limit games say the same thing about you? Since SKP was at the 15-30 game with the guy it's probably ridiculous of him to make fun of the limits the other guy plays at.

I would have just told him to stop being an ahole.

[CreamPuff]

This is a 2 chip 3 chip blind structure

My bad...Forgot about the 15/30 structure.

[dj_jazzyjeff]

You played it right.

He's an idiot for raising on the turn when the 8 came! Did he see the straight draw (you check-bet on the flop and now you're opening) dee.

When you were raised you had to call w/ top pair (crap kicker) and an open-ended straight.

/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif Somtimes people get mad and say things that aren't true. Keep your head up champ.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi John:

No. I'm not a struggling pro, and I don't behave poorly in the games.

Best wishes,
Mason

[inkstain]

You're an idiot for thinking that he's an idiot for raising when a "straight possible" card comes. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's there.

Keep on playing passive, scared, low-limit-style poker heads-up.

[John Ho]

Touche

[andyfox]

I would have gone to said ATM, withdrawn $500, brought it back to he table, asked for chips, and told him, "Cool, you're right, thanks!"

Seems to me players in Vegas discuss and overanalyze hands at the table ad infinitum. Their meanspiritedness is generally directed at other players, whereas our garden variety L.A. a-holes uglify at the dealers.

[Softrock]

Andy - I don't think I've ever heard "ugly" turned into a verb before but I like it. However, shouldn't it just be "ugly" as the present tense and "uglied" as the past. ie. "After the river came he uglied the dealer."

[jkinetic]

Andy,

I hate LV players, they are so arrogant and pretentious and act as if they own the game.

There are more poker "teachers" per capita in LV than anywhere in any cardroom in the world to the nth degree.

They can't handle the fact that the players from the Westside have more talent and have taken the game to the next level, while the LV players are still playing caveman/woman ABC from all the books that they have read.

But I can't condone the behavior of the Westside players towards dealers, at times just reprehensible.

[skp]

I couldn't come up with anything witty...so I just looked at the guy and said "so, when should I have folded?"

...to which, he mumbled something like "lessons are on saturday only" or something and that was that. He picked up left a little later.

[andyfox]

Uglify is defintely wrong. I should have said uglificate.

[M.B.E.]

Funny; I played the Bellagio 15-30 graveyard shift Sunday and Monday nights this week; there were a few "local pros" in the game both nights. One of them was quite friendly to me at first, but then started insulting me the second night after his chips started migrating my way. He actually changed seats to get position on me. Up until then the hands I had won against him were basically just my catching the cards I needed, but after he moved to my left there were a couple of hands where I clearly outplayed him:

1. I coldcall a raise in a multiway pot with A/forums/images/icons/heart.gif4/forums/images/icons/heart.gif. My nemesis threebets on the button and all call. Flop comes ace-high with two spades, and it's checked around. Turn is the 4/forums/images/icons/spade.gif, giving me two pair but putting three spades on board. Checked to me and I bet. My nemesis raises, everyone else folds. I reason that if he had a flush, he wouldn't be raising the turn (and in any event would likely have bet his flush draw on the flop). So I figure my two-pair is probably good and three bet. He calls. The river was an offsuit queen. I bet, and he called. I said "two pair", and he then released his hand practically before I showed mine. He said he had AK.

2. After one limper, I raise on the button with KJo; he calls from the big blind. Three of us take the flop, which comes ace-high with two diamonds. He bets, the other guy folds, and I raise. (I figure that if he had an ace he would have checked to me.) He calls. The turn is a blank and we both check. The river is a diamond. We both check. He shows 9/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif for a flush and takes the (tiny) pot.

[Zele]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
2. After one limper, I raise on the button with KJo; he calls from the big blind. Three of us take the flop, which comes ace-high with two diamonds. He bets, the other guy folds, and I raise. (I figure that if he had an ace he would have checked to me.) He calls. The turn is a blank and we both check. The river is a diamond. We both check. He shows 93 for a flush and takes the (tiny) pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I question that you "outplayed him" here. You were fairly sure you had the best hand on the flop, a blank came on the turn, and you checked through, giving him the free card that made his flush. While I agree that his pre-flop play wasn't good (calling a raise from BB with 93s), the fact is you surrendered this pot to him, and buying a free card from early position is no mean feat.

[M.B.E.]

<font color="purple">I question that you "outplayed him" here. You were fairly sure you had the best hand on the flop, a blank came on the turn, and you checked through, giving him the free card that made his flush. While I agree that his pre-flop play wasn't good (calling a raise from BB with 93s), the fact is you surrendered this pot to him, and buying a free card from early position is no mean feat.</font color>

You're right that from a fundamental-theorem-of-poker viewpoint my play on the turn was wrong because I had the best hand and should have bet it. However, it's misleading to say that I "surrendered" the pot by checking, because of course he would have called my turn bet. On the other hand, if he had bet out on the turn as a semibluff, I would have folded my KJ which was the best hand. So my opponent's play of checking the turn was a greater "error" than my play of checking the turn.

What I really liked about this hand, however, was my play on the river; my opponent had been counting on me to bet so that he could checkraise.

[David Sklansky]

Because of the toughness of the very big games and the monumental bankroll requirements, it is entirely possible that a 30-60 or 60-120 holdem pro is in the same league, skillwise, as those who play higher. The same cannot be said for those pros who stick to 15-30.

[cero_z]

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt he's a pro if he acts that idiotic at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, this behavior was typical of the pros in the Bellagio 15-30 and 30-60 games when I played there in April. I found Mason's observation to be true; the players in the 15 games were worse,--played worse and whined worse.

[Vehn]

So what you're saying is, the people who pay 15/30 are worse players than those who play 30/60?

[47outs]

Nice hand.
This guy you call a pro doesn't sound much like a pro. As I read in your post this "pro" emotionally attached himself to a meaningless hand, showed frustration and continued the session playing target poker vs. you (by changing seats to exact his revenge). He is right on 1 thing though, keep playing... hopefully he does have more in that bank machine.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi SKP:

I'm getting in on this a little late and I haven't read the other posts.

I also need to be careful on how I say this, but why is the Vegas Pro playing $15-$30? Now I don't mean to come across wrong since I played limits like this for many, many years, and there are some very good players, including a few who post here, that do play that limit.

But there are also some other marginal players who while they do grind out enough at $15-$30 to make a meager living, they don't do as well at a higher limit. I suspect that you ran into one of these. That is a frustrated marginal pro who probably needs to work on improving his game.

As for your hand, in my opinion you did play it correctly. There are two reasons you don't want to fold on fourth street. First you have an additional out with the straight draw (even though it is the bottom end). And second, and perhaps more important, in short handed situations it becomes correct to throw in fourth street raises with marginal hands. These can include hands like middle pair. Now I can't tell from this post if your opponent knows this, but if you think he might, you need to call with your top pair poor kicker.

Best wishes,
Mason