Cigars, Politics and Freedom (in that order)

OK, I did a search on the forums, and there seem to have been very few posts (of any worth really) about cigars. Yet I feel that cigars have, very much, a strong association with the unmentionable (on this forum) game.

On reflection, I realised that the problem was that you poor USA citizens are not allowed this marvellous experience that a hand made Cuban gigar of good quality is. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I mean, economic sanctions.. against that small island... u guys are real wusses. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I really am only experienced with Cubans. Every forays I have had with other nationalities seegars (as Gore Vidal would say) has been a dissapointment.

I also note that Pres. Kennedy ensured that his staff went out and purchased some Cubans the day prior to enabling the embargo. At least some president had some class. /images/graemlins/smile.gif By the way, those were Upmann if the legend is right.

Anyone ready to discuss cigars, or politics and freedom? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

PS I enjoy one cigar daily after my meal, whilst I finish my bottle of red and play some on-line poker, ot just relax. OK, rarely, for the right occasion I may have 2, or even 3). /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RunDownHouse]

Everything I've read from "experts" in the field - meaning magazine articles, stuff in Cigar Afficiando, etc - says that Cubans have lost major ground to Dominican and other tobaccos.

I'm not experienced enough to tell real subtle differences in quality, but none of the Cubans I've had have been head-and-shoulders above similar Dominicans.

[ QUOTE ]
Everything I've read from "experts" in the field - meaning magazine articles, stuff in Cigar Afficiando, etc - says that Cubans have lost major ground to Dominican and other tobaccos.

I'm not experienced enough to tell real subtle differences in quality, but none of the Cubans I've had have been head-and-shoulders above similar Dominicans.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, I still get a box of cubans every month from a connection I have in Jamaica. The H Upman Vintage Cameroon (non-cuban) rivals a lot of the good Cohibas (2004 anniver. are very similar).

[jaydub]

Cubans can be easily attained in the US, but unless you have a knowledgeable source they are often fakes.

Cubans can be better than non Cubans or worse, it depends on the individual cigar. However, many of the greatest cigars available are made in Cuba and if I had to pick a single country of origin, it would be Cuba.

The politics of it does not belong here but it is a mess. A complicated, festering, mess.

[Inthacup]

unless you have a knowledgeable source they are often fakes.

This is an understatement. Over 90% of the Cubans sold in the US are fakes.

Regarding the quality of Cuban cigars, there was a few year period between 1998-2001 where the quality was very poor. Their production goals were wayyy too high.

Fortunately, they have become much more reasonable, and are focusing more on quality rather than quanitity. The cigars that have been produced over the last 2 years have been fantastic and have great aging potential.

The problem with Cubans is that the tobacco isn't aged before they are boxed and sold. As a result, cuban cigars go through a sick period usually from about 6 months through 2-3 years. During this time, they have a noticable ammonia flavor. This is a part of the natural aging process, escpecially with stronger cigars. Some cubans take 5+ years to mature. During that time, the flavor profile for a cuban cigar can change dramatically. A Montecristo with 1 year of age on it will be much different than the same cigar with 5 years of age.

If you want to read more about this, the most extensive book on the subject is

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Post-Revolution Havana Cigars
http://www.aficionado-a-havanas.com/encyclopedia.jpg

It is extensive and has lots of pictures, but it is expensive.

Cup

[Inthacup]

You're probably going to take offense to this, but there is a very very good chance that the cigars you have been buying are fake. Unless they are being purchased from La Casa Del Habanos, it is highly unlikely that they are real.

There are many online sites that are reputable and have excellent prices. Even if your cigars from Jamaica are real, you can get them at better prices online. PM me if you would like some more details.

Cup

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
unless you have a knowledgeable source they are often fakes.

This is an understatement. Over 90% of the Cubans sold in the US are fakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being nice, people don't like being told they've almost certainly been ripped off.

Nice post and yes, online is certainly the way to go.

[maryfield48]

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Everything I've read from "experts" in the field - meaning magazine articles, stuff in Cigar Afficiando, etc - says that Cubans have lost major ground to Dominican and other tobaccos.

I'm not experienced enough to tell real subtle differences in quality, but none of the Cubans I've had have been head-and-shoulders above similar Dominicans.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, I still get a box of cubans every month from a connection I have in Jamaica. The H Upman Vintage Cameroon (non-cuban) rivals a lot of the good Cohibas (2004 anniver. are very similar).

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone I know? I agree that there are Dominicans as good as any Cubans that I have had. Let me also recommend to you a very nice Jamaican brand called Barrington House (http://www.barringtonhouseinternational.com/). Their Fundadores line is my staple.

[ QUOTE ]
Everything I've read from "experts" in the field - meaning magazine articles, stuff in Cigar Afficiando, etc - says that Cubans have lost major ground to Dominican and other tobaccos.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is to be expected if the largest and most accessible market is arbitrarily closed (probably in the name of economic freedom and free markets /images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

Hiya IntheCup,

Min Ron Nee's book is a must for afficionados indeed. Good one. Did you know that there is a new edition just or just about out.

PS I may have been lucky or use legitimate reliable suppliers, but I never had an amonia flavoured (?) Cuban /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cheers

[Reqtech]

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It is to be expected if the largest and most accessible market is arbitrarily closed (probably in the name of economic freedom and free markets /images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really not know why there is an (outdated) embargo on Cuba?

[jaydub]

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It is to be expected if the largest and most accessible market is arbitrarily closed (probably in the name of economic freedom and free markets /images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really not know why there is an (outdated) embargo on Cuba?

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard it had something to do with Castro [censored] Marilyn Monroe.

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It is to be expected if the largest and most accessible market is arbitrarily closed (probably in the name of economic freedom and free markets /images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really not know why there is an (outdated) embargo on Cuba?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it was a loss rather than a victory for the US. Seems to always work like that. Vietnam was the same. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kipin]

The Nicaraguan company Padron makes some damn fine cigars that in my mind are just as good, if not better than the Cubans I have smoked.

Cubans are in my opinion overrated, and overpriced, but to each his own.

[Reqtech]

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It is to be expected if the largest and most accessible market is arbitrarily closed (probably in the name of economic freedom and free markets /images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really not know why there is an (outdated) embargo on Cuba?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it was a loss rather than a victory for the US. Seems to always work like that. Vietnam was the same. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it sucks that we lost the Cuban missile crisis.

[jaydub]

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The Nicaraguan company Padron makes some damn fine cigars that in my mind are just as good, if not better than the Cubans I have smoked.

Cubans are in my opinion overrated, and overpriced, but to each his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should we even bother asking which cubans you smoked?

[kipin]

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[ QUOTE ]
The Nicaraguan company Padron makes some damn fine cigars that in my mind are just as good, if not better than the Cubans I have smoked.

Cubans are in my opinion overrated, and overpriced, but to each his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should we even bother asking which cubans you smoked?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see your point, but I don't think I need to divulge that information. I can tell you I have had quite a few top dollar cubans ($25-$40 range) and in my opinion, dollar for dollar they are not worth the effort to try to track them down inside the U.S.

Smoking cigars for me is about personal preference, not about being an elitist who wants to impress everyone around him but doesn't even know how to appreciate the cigar.

Like I said, to each his own.

I personally prefer padrons, but I understand, if someone else doesn't.

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
The Nicaraguan company Padron makes some damn fine cigars that in my mind are just as good, if not better than the Cubans I have smoked.

Cubans are in my opinion overrated, and overpriced, but to each his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should we even bother asking which cubans you smoked?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see your point, but I don't think I need to divulge that information. I can tell you I have had quite a few top dollar cubans ($25-$40 range) and in my opinion, dollar for dollar they are not worth the effort to try to track them down inside the U.S.

Smoking cigars for me is about personal preference, not about being an elitist who wants to impress everyone around him but doesn't even know how to appreciate the cigar.

Like I said, to each his own.

I personally prefer padrons, but I understand, if someone else doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I def agree, that its preference, not being elitist. But, one, I hate padrons, I had the 1926 anniv, and did not like it one bit (and it was not cheap), 2- I really dislike some cubans, it just happens that my favorite is a cuban (2004 sublime). To me the Padron's are too strong, and "stingy", where a nice H Upman (domestic) Vintage cameroon is my style. Does Padron make something similar to the Upman that I could try?

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Cubans are in my opinion overrated, and overpriced , but to each his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they are illegal. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Yeah, it sucks that we lost the Cuban missile crisis

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a diplomatic solution, not a military victory. I was thinking more of the stellar example of military might and brilliant display of strategic and tactical skills examplified in the memorable "Bay of Pigs" intervention. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The Nicaraguan company Padron makes some damn fine cigars that in my mind are just as good, if not better than the Cubans I have smoked.

Cubans are in my opinion overrated, and overpriced, but to each his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hiya kipin,

One of the reason for starting this thread was to get some information about what non-Cuban gigar to give another try. Of course, I wanted to have the advice from an expert, or someone at least vey knowledgeable about Cubans.

It seems to me that the view expressed mostly by those that have a difficulty getting Cuban, is akin to the childish reaction, that if you cannot get it, then you may as well say it is bad to justify and uplift the perceived value of what you can get.

As I said in my first post, I don't smoke non-Cubans because my experience with them as been dissapointing each time I tried.

But I am prepare to give it a go, based on some seasoned advice. I do no wish to spoil my daily ritual with something that may not even be second-best.

[beta1607]

Try the CAO with cameroon wrappers. My favorite cigar by far.

[kipin]

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Cubans are in my opinion overrated, and overpriced , but to each his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they are illegal. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They are not illegal in Europe and they are expensive there. Its a status thing, and people are willing to pay $30 for a cigar because it will make them look cool.

[kipin]

[ QUOTE ]
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The Nicaraguan company Padron makes some damn fine cigars that in my mind are just as good, if not better than the Cubans I have smoked.

Cubans are in my opinion overrated, and overpriced, but to each his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should we even bother asking which cubans you smoked?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see your point, but I don't think I need to divulge that information. I can tell you I have had quite a few top dollar cubans ($25-$40 range) and in my opinion, dollar for dollar they are not worth the effort to try to track them down inside the U.S.

Smoking cigars for me is about personal preference, not about being an elitist who wants to impress everyone around him but doesn't even know how to appreciate the cigar.

Like I said, to each his own.

I personally prefer padrons, but I understand, if someone else doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I def agree, that its preference, not being elitist. But, one, I hate padrons, I had the 1926 anniv, and did not like it one bit (and it was not cheap), 2- I really dislike some cubans, it just happens that my favorite is a cuban (2004 sublime). To me the Padron's are too strong, and "stingy", where a nice H Upman (domestic) Vintage cameroon is my style. Does Padron make something similar to the Upman that I could try?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never had the 1926 because I have heard the same thing, which makes it seem not worth the money. I have had quite a few 1967's and I absolutely love that line. I believe the 1926 series use the same filler as the 1967's but they are just aged 2 years longer in the Padron warehouse.

Most of the 1967's I have smoked have been aged in my humidor for at least a year, which will improve just about any cigar.

A good 1967 is one of the creamiest cigars, producing huge amounts of rich, white smoke, which is very satisfying to me. The draw is also very easy.

Anyway about your comment about the 1926's being to stingy, I have definitely noticed this on other Padron cigars when they have not been aged after I purchased them. I bought a box of 6000's a couple months ago and noticed the first few I smoked (didn't let them age) were stingy as hell, almost to the point of being unpleasant. However, now that they have aged for a few months, they are a very good moderate priced cigar.

I kind of think Padron may be rushing cigars out to keep up with the demand. If that is the case the quality will definitely suffer, which is unfortunate.

As for a recommendation, I have never had the Upman you talk about, what are the properties of it? Hard to recommend something when I have not had what you're favorite cigar is. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
They are not illegal in Europe and they are expensive there. Its a status thing, and people are willing to pay $30 for a cigar because it will make them look cool.


[/ QUOTE ]

What can I say? I guess I wouldn't put this past the europeans. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

As for me, I live a very solitary life (by choice), I enjoy at least one hand made cigar every day after dinner, together with a full bottle of wine. I don't mind paying $50 or even $100 for a bottle of wine, as long as it is good, in the same way that I don't mind paying $30 or $50 for a cigar. They both have similarity of uniqueness, richness and progressing taste variation as they get consumed. I do it purely for the hedonistic view point. The only people that may be impressed are the people collecting my glass refuse every fortnight and that process is automated, so I doubt they will see it.

Enjoy kipin /images/graemlins/smile.gif and let me enjoy it too without attributing other reasons for my behaviour. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

OTOH, I know some people of the ilk you are describing. They are a bore, usually have no taste, and whether or not, they consume something good is usually a matter of luck.

OK kipin,

You were talking the talk /images/graemlins/smile.gif

What would recommend as a non Cuban.

Here are my preferences, as you will notice I have a sweet tooth when it comes to cigars:

light to medium body
sweet

creamy

sweet spice
cinnamon

cacao
vanilla

not salty/ bitter

rich

I'll try your recommendation on my next order.

[Jesse Kidd]

I apologize for the moderate thread hijack, but I had just happened to be hunting around online for cigars at the same time I spotted this. I'm a new smoker, and was looking for a sort of "variety pack" of quality smokes so that I could get a better idea of what I liked and disliked. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks for your time,

Jesse

[vexvelour]

Good for you. I bet my cigars are better than Cubans anytime.

(Hint: Mine are filled with pot.)

Jesse Kid,

No problems with hijacking from my view point.

It may be useful to say which country you are from, as accesibilty is different from country to country, specially the USA. No cubans available! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Good for you. I bet my cigars are better than Cubans anytime.

(Hint: Mine are filled with pot.)

[/ QUOTE ]
]
Hiya vexvelour,

They are not available here easily /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jesse Kidd]

From the US, so Cubans are out for the moment. At this stage, I don't think I'd appreciate them enough to warrant the effort/cost to secure them...

At the moment, I was looking at the H. Upmann Reserve No.1 or Vintage Collection, but I seriously have very little idea what I'm doing, just excited to try something.

Jesse

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
From the US, so Cubans are out for the moment. At this stage, I don't think I'd appreciate them enough to warrant the effort/cost to secure them...

At the moment, I was looking at the H. Upmann Reserve No.1 or Vintage Collection, but I seriously have very little idea what I'm doing, just excited to try something.

Jesse

[/ QUOTE ]

Go to a B&M tobacco shop. Talk to the people there, they will steer you to a few to start with. Smoke them, return to discuss likes / dislikes. Repeat.

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
Good for you. I bet my cigars are better than Cubans anytime.

(Hint: Mine are filled with pot.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well aren't you just so [censored] cool.

[Inthacup]

Go to a B&M tobacco shop. Talk to the people there, they will steer you to a few to start with.

IME, B&M employees are terrible sources of information and reccomendations.

[Jesse Kidd]

I'd rather get a recommendation from you guys, or just spend some time digging online. I've gone to two shops locally, with disappointing results (service, price, and advice) both times.

[Inthacup]

I'm a new smoker, and was looking for a sort of "variety pack" of quality smokes so that I could get a better idea of what I liked and disliked.

Many cigar forums have a newbie trade thread. I would recommend checking out www.cigarpass.com (http://www.cigarpass.com) . Their newbie trade thread is here (http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5916).

The thread is huge, but read through the first post, get a feel for how things go, and get involved. I would take the recommendations on cigar forums over B&M employees every time.

Cup

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a new smoker, and was looking for a sort of "variety pack" of quality smokes so that I could get a better idea of what I liked and disliked.

Many cigar forums have a newbie trade thread. I would recommend checking out www.cigarpass.com (http://www.cigarpass.com) . Their newbie trade thread is here (http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5916).

The thread is huge, but read through the first post, get a feel for how things go, and get involved. I would take the recommendations on cigar forums over B&M employees every time.

Cup

[/ QUOTE ]

Great links. Just what I was looking for. Thanks Cup.

[limon]

IMHO, the padron anniversario is the best cigar CURRENTLY on the market and...not a cuban! in general the cuban TTT Trinidad fundadore is the best.