red 88...play along with me

[PokerBob]

Canterbury 15/30 9 handed
UTG+1 is the only decent player in the game. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, 1 fold, 2 more limpers to me on the button with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I......state what you do and why.

[imported_stealthcow]

you gotta raise. you're getting somewhere between 6-7 to 1 and dont need much more to get odds to raise for equity along. include your postflop edge, and you should raise it up. also, making the pot bigger on the flop will occasionally make it okay for you to draw again on the flop where if you just limp you wont have the odds.

stealthcow-

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
also, making the pot bigger on the flop will occasionally make it okay for you to draw again on the flop where if you just limp you wont have the odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that a good thing? I don't disagree with a raise here but I really don't like it when people post that you should bloat the pot preflop so that you help yourself find the turn.

Rob

[Joe Tall]

Sometimes I limp, most of the time I raise. It's a great time to mix up your play in an EV neutral situation.

[imported_stealthcow]

to be 100% honest, the idea of bloating the pot has been one of the things i have planned on looking into if its worth it or not in terms of increasing your equity becuase you'll be in fighting for a pot that you normally wouldn't be in. so i haven't done the math yet, but i think* it is either a completely =ev play that only increases your variance, or slightly +ev. but that doesn't include the amount of times both blinds fold, blanks flop and your continuation bet narrows down the field. ( although thats rare as well, and pretty slight if the opponents are as i suspect)

stealthcow-

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I limp, most of the time I raise. It's a great time to mix up your play in an EV neutral situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I think I'm almost exactly the opposite. Of course, this is online. Live I think I'd be more inclined to raise and online I'm more inclined to limp -- I'm probably about 75/25 limping/raising here.

Rob

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I limp, most of the time I raise. It's a great time to mix up your play in an EV neutral situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I limp, most of the time I raise. It's a great time to mix up your play in an EV neutral situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Me2. what's the flop? maybe you flopped a set! That'd be awesome.

Surf

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I limp, most of the time I raise. It's a great time to mix up your play in an EV neutral situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Me2. what's the flop? maybe you flopped a set! That'd be awesome.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

my guess is that hes gonna turn one.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I limp, most of the time I raise. It's a great time to mix up your play in an EV neutral situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Me2. what's the flop? maybe you flopped a set! That'd be awesome.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

my guess is that hes gonna turn one.

[/ QUOTE ]

And still lose /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I raise preflop - raising is fun.

-DeathDonkey

[TJD]

I would normally limp.

I would raise if the field were weak and passive since I may get a "free" 4th card to spike my set and that "cost" would be close to zero due to the preflop odds. If I hit I have more money in the pot of course.

If the field were more normal then I would limp. I hate variance. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The disclaimer is that I have never played live so I do not know how important it is to mix it up.

I suspect this is yet another of those millions of situations in poker where whatever you do you will be close to neutral EV. So it matters not a jot! So.... Do ya feel lucky punk? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

T

[Jules22]

i like raising here for two reasons especially

1. you tie big cards to the pot more often when you flop your set, and often, they are drawing virtually dead

2. if the flop has overcards or is otherwise unfavorable, you can get a free card for a chance to spike the set

[TaintedRogue]

I raise due to the culmination of three factors:
1. I'm getting good odds on my draw to a set.
2. My opponents may check to me on the Flop, giving me a free card if I don't flop a set.
3. I may get a blind or two to fold.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise due to the culmination of three factors:
1. I'm getting good odds on my draw to a set.
2. My opponents may check to me on the Flop, giving me a free card if I don't flop a set.
3. I may get a blind or two to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was with you until #3. In the cb 15 game the blinds are folding approximately 0% of the time.

[lil feller]

Most of the time i'd limp. I don't want to put myself on anybodys radar, and I want to see if anybody behind me as a 2 bet hand. There are already so many people in this pot you can really only play this hand for set value anyway, and i'd like to be able to get in some good old fashioned ramming if I hit.

In addition to that, if you limp and you flop an overpair, or maybe there's just one over card, you're less likely to get checked too and it'll be easier to determine whether or not your pair is still good.

Keep in mind, this is what I'd do. You, however, are DERG, and you will never flop a set here for you this is a clear fold.

smiles,

lf

[smurfitup]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise due to the culmination of three factors:
1. I'm getting good odds on my draw to a set.
2. My opponents may check to me on the Flop, giving me a free card if I don't flop a set.
3. I may get a blind or two to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was with you until #3. In the cb 15 game the blinds are folding approximately 0% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you want the blinds to fold? most of the value 88 has in one of these loose live games is for a set. i'd rather have the blinds in there and make it less correct for everyone to draw on the flop when you do in fact flop a set.

[brettbrettr]

I'd just call here and take a look at the flop. A raise will shrink the field and with this many guys I don't see us winning u/i very often at all.

[BoxLiquid]

I usually limp but now that I look at the posts. Raising is not a bad idea. There are like 5 limpers and you're like a 7.5-1 dog. If you hit your set the players will be encouraged to keep playing and take a look at the next card since the pot is huge.
And the possibility of a free turn card makes it +ev.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually limp but now that I look at the posts. Raising is not a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[sfer]

I would raise 33 most of the time. Anyone disagree?

[BigEndian]

If players routinely check to the bettor on this table then this is an easy raise in my opinion.

- Jim

[PokerBob]

Canterbury 15/30 9 handed
UTG+1 is the only decent player in the game. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, 1 fold, 2 more limpers to me on the button with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I decided to limp. IMO it doesn't matter much either way. Of course the SB came along and the BB checked.

Flop (8 players) (8 SB): 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
blinds check, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, 3 more guys call and now it's up to me, I.......

[BigEndian]

Raise.

- Jim

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

and your reasoning?

[BigEndian]

1. You possibly have the best hand.
2. You want to kick out the blinds and improve your chances of winning.
3. You want to define your hand.
4. Even if you don't have the best hand, you likely have enough equity to make raising the meat in the middle valuable.
5. You have position and can take a free card on the turn if you choose (and haven't been 3-bet).

Those outweigh the chances of getting 3-bet imo.

- Jim

[SA125]

I like raising 88 there, more than I like raising AKo there, for two reasons. Metagame and implied odds. The cost is minimal to continue to play aggressive with position with a hand that would be well disguised.

when I think about "bloating the pot", the first thing I consider is the opponents I am up against. The whole idea of bloating the pot is to induce people to chase on weak hands/draws that they wouldnt chase in a smaller pot. But if you are against a bunch of bad players who are going to chase with these same hands regardless of the pot size then theres less incentive to raise. So the worse the players are the less likely I will raise 88 in this specific situation, and the better they are the more likely Im building the pot with a raise. Also if I am convinced that the table will always check to the raiser postflop, then I would probably raise it up since the EV difference between raising and calling is close to zero, raising becomes better becuz you get to see 4 cards (if you chose to take a free card) instead of 3 cards. With no reads on the table I would probably just call.

[Victor]

doesnt really matter but i raise bc raising is fun.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
to be 100% honest, the idea of bloating the pot has been one of the things i have planned on looking into if its worth it or not in terms of increasing your equity

[/ QUOTE ]

its not worth it. common fallacy tho.

sometimes when im bluff 3bet the pot is so big that its worth it for me to bluff 5bet, then i might as well bluff 7bet and eventually the pot is so big that i figure i oughta call with my queen high. ya know, cuz i made the pot huge.

sometimes im getting 10:1 on the flop with a gutterball but i know i wont be getting very good odds on the turn and i really wanna see the river so i just go ahead an cap it out on the flop so i can see the river bc i hate folding and i should win like every pot.

[Victor]

a few quick points.

raising is better against passive opponents since they will check to you and its easier for you to get to showdown unimproved with the best hand.

raising, however, hurts your earn when you flop sets, since players wont give you mcuh action.
edit: this is not true for this examle since there are gonna be so many callers that you are getting close to the requisite 8:1. however, if the pot was gonna be 3-5way it would hold

raising helps your earn when you win unimproved since you are taking advantage of an immediate equity edge.

[worm33]

[ QUOTE ]
i like raising here for two reasons especially

1. you tie big cards to the pot more often when you flop your set, and often, they are drawing virtually dead

2. if the flop has overcards or is otherwise unfavorable, you can get a free card for a chance to spike the set

[/ QUOTE ]


This is perfect, especialy in the canterbury 15 where if you raise the field on the button at least 65% of the time they check to you. How often do you make a set when you get to see 4 cards an extra 65% of the time?

[worm33]

i would call and see the turn unless the flop leader is the type to 3 bet a pair+draw and knock out the 2 flop callers.

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
Canterbury 15/30 9 handed
UTG+1 is the only decent player in the game. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, 1 fold, 2 more limpers to me on the button with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I decided to limp. IMO it doesn't matter much either way. Of course the SB came along and the BB checked.

Flop (8 players) (8 SB): 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
blinds check, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, 3 more guys call and now it's up to me, I.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough decision, i'm not convinced your equity is big enough on the flop to push with a raise and you can't effectively protect your hand. I like just a call here.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop (8 players) (8 SB): 4 5 7
blinds check, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, 3 more guys call and now it's up to me, I.......

[/ QUOTE ]

It's extremely drawn out, UTG is solid so I assume he can/will 3-bet, not many to get rid of in the blinds, just call.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop (8 players) (8 SB): 4 5 7
blinds check, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, 3 more guys call and now it's up to me, I.......

[/ QUOTE ]

It's extremely drawn out, UTG is solid so I assume he can/will 3-bet, not many to get rid of in the blinds, just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+1 is solid and folded, UTG is retarded.

[coolhandkuhn]

[ QUOTE ]
Canterbury 15/30 9 handed
UTG+1 is the only decent player in the game. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, 1 fold, 2 more limpers to me on the button with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I decided to limp. IMO it doesn't matter much either way. Of course the SB came along and the BB checked.

Flop (8 players) (8 SB): 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
blinds check, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, 3 more guys call and now it's up to me, I.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Call. A raise here gives the next guy to act 7:1 on their call, and anyone who's already called 1 bet is getting 14+:1 to call behind you (read: you're not getting anyone out that has any kind of draw against you). Not to mention that we can't be sure we're best right now (though I do like our hand). I call, wait to see what the turn brings, and go from there. A raise here just bloats the pot w/o getting anyone to fold, lessening your chances of getting anyone to fold on the turn.

[DeathDonkey]

Then you pretty much need to raise, you can't count on him betting the turn for you.

-DeathDonkey

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Then you pretty much need to raise, you can't count on him betting the turn for you.


[/ QUOTE ]

His hand is also too vulnerable to overcards and the MPs aren't going anywhere, still call.

[NLSoldier]

Call.

[KramerTM]

With 5 limpers already, this is an easy raise for me. I'm looking to cash in if I flop a set, or at least get a free turn card if I miss.

Calling isn't bad either, but I'd be more inclined to just call here against opponents who like to jam after the flop.

[private joker]

It's like the TT overpair hand in SSHE. Miller recommends just calling on a flop like this, and I agree. Call.

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
It's like the TT overpair hand in SSHE. Miller recommends just calling on a flop like this, and I agree. Call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Page please?

Grunch, Call cold,
Set bet...
88 doesnt have enough equity multihanded, and your raise isnt eliminating any competition.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's like the TT overpair hand in SSHE. Miller recommends just calling on a flop like this, and I agree. Call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Page please?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't have the book with me. I lent it to my girlfriend! /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise 33 most of the time. Anyone disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against docile players who'll usually let me have a look at the turn in addition to the flop if I don't hit my set I like that...

[El Tigre]

havent read the other replies so i might be repeating what they said. The example in SSHE of the TT hand, is a little different. There are 2 clubs on the board in that hand and you dont have one. Also you have a backdoor gutshot in that hand. Here you also have probably 3-3 1/2 clean outs with the 6 for the str8. I like a raise here to see how the field reacts. It is a semi-free card half value raise.

I dunno call is fine also i guess

The raise is solid to push out the posible str8 and flush draws as well

[BoxLiquid]

[ QUOTE ]
Canterbury 15/30 9 handed
UTG+1 is the only decent player in the game. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, 1 fold, 2 more limpers to me on the button with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I decided to limp. IMO it doesn't matter much either way. Of course the SB came along and the BB checked.

Flop (8 players) (8 SB): 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
blinds check, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, 3 more guys call and now it's up to me, I.......

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually raise but after reading all the feedback on this thread I don't disagree with calling. You can't protect your hand at all. If you raise here the players with a flush draw will actually get helped more than you. If an 8 comes on the turn you have a redraw to a fullhouse and a 6 excluding the 6 of hearts gives you a straight. Problem is though your straight is almost worthless because you can lose on the river by getting flushed. It's a tough decision.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise is solid to push out the posible str8 and flush draws as well

[/ QUOTE ]

a flush draw is going nowhere.

[PokerBob]

Canterbury 15/30 9 handed
UTG+1 is the only decent player in the game. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, 1 fold, 2 more limpers to me on the button with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I decided to limp. IMO it doesn't matter much either way. Of course the SB came along and the BB checked.

Flop (8 players) (8 SB): 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
blinds check, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, 3 more guys call and now it's up to me, I.......thought about raising but just called. Blinds folded out.

Turn (5 monkies)(6.5BB):K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
It checks all the way to me and I bet, every monkey folds. I am the best poker player ever. ever.

[LarsVegas]

Maybe I'm running too good, but I don't think so, but this is a raise I think. I think they eights will win more than it's fair share here.

lars

[CardSharpCook]

At least you included yourself amoung the monkies. Cost yourself 2BB by not raising the flop. For shame. FOR SHAME!!!!!!!!

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
At least you included yourself amoung the monkies. Cost yourself 2BB by not raising the flop. For shame. FOR SHAME!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising this flop is going to cost him in the long run. You are looking at the results and have been reading too mcuh BarronVanTooth garbage.

[private joker]

I agree with Joe. Even if you were going to be results-oriented, you should be realizing that by not raising the flop, Bob was able to represent a K easier on the turn. Had he raised the flop, anyone who called would have stubbornly called the turn.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
At least you included yourself amoung the monkies. Cost yourself 2BB by not raising the flop. For shame. FOR SHAME!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

wow this is retarded. if he had raised the flop, the pot would be bigger and at least one of them would have correctl called.