Please give me advice on AA preflop and then AA post flop?

[JesusSmurf]

Hello, I seem to be losing a lot of money on really great starting hands that go to chit when the flop comes out. IE. $400Pl room $2 and $4 blinds. I have AA25 double suited and raise $14 preflop with 2 callers. The flop comes JJ3 rainbow. If I check here I give the green light for any of the other 2 people to try and steal. If I bet and get called, I feel that they might have the Jack. What is the best way to play a hand like this post flop with 2 other players in the hand?

This is just an example, but it is frustrating when other players play these type hands really fast and hard and win the whole pot with a pair of aces. I play it the same way and it seems I run into 2 pair or three of a kind. Thanks for any help.

[Wolffink]

Good question.

I don't know the answer. It's a tough predicament.

You could bet out a near pot size bet and see if you get raised and then give it up. Or you could check. If it's bet and raised coming back to you, it's an easy fold. Being out of position hurts here because you have the same predicament on the turn--though it might be a bit better because you might gain a low draw.

I think you have to check here, otherwise you have a mediocre hand out of position and are risking losing your stack. And you have to dodge more danger cards unless an Ace comes on the board. Any card coming off can make someone a full house if they don't have one already.

Actually I think I do know the answer. You check and fold if the betting is aggressive. AA25ds is a great hand, but it has to fit the flop. If you're out of position and can't scoop you have to fold it. Lyle Berman says players lose more money with Aces than any other hand. You say the same thing. So the answer is, don't bite, don't get sucked down all the way to the river on an expensive hand with a mediocre non-nut hand.

A tougher Question is: would you stay in if the flop was two-suited to one of your Aces instead of rainbow ? I'd say no. If it was two suited to your ace AND had two low cards, I'd say yes. But what a change that is from the initial flop.

[Cooker]

I think the example he gives is a nice flop for AA25 (not perfect, but not terrible). I think people tend to play low cards in raised pots, so I wouldn't be surprised if both players fold when you bet. Also, a paired flop hits much fewer hands than say JT2.

I think checking this flop is a mistake, because too much can go wrong. If it goes check check, the person in position will bet nearly 100% of the the time, so what do you do. You probably have the best hand (no one will have a J about 67%), but now you are stuck because if you flat call, the middle player could have the J and raise both of you (which is something I might try since so many people auto bet when checked to in position). Here you have put yourself to a tough test and are likely going to end up folding the best hand. I say bet out about half the pot. If anyone calls or raises, then give it up unless you have a read that the person in question is a moron or habitual bluffer.

[ QUOTE ]
Hello, I seem to be losing a lot of money on really great starting hands that go to chit when the flop comes out. IE. $400Pl room $2 and $4 blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you only playing these hands? If so, you're probably playing too tight and you're opponents are going to figure it out. Why do you think A-A-2-5 double suited is so good? You are not wrong, but if you want to play these hands profitably, you need to understand what you are playing.

You are playing for another Ace, two flushes, the wheel, and the low. These are low probability hands to hit, with the exception of the low. You should keep in mind that you're aces are probably dead because of the calls to your raise.

With the starting hand you use, you either want lots of callers in case your rare cards hit, or very few so your aces can stand on their own, but the latter is much harder to play because A-A overpair is not good in Omaha/8 nearly as often as it is hold'em. In other words, you are guaranteeing yourself a tough decision, and you need to have a feel for the game and your opponents before you place yourself in this position.

[ QUOTE ]
The flop comes JJ3 rainbow. If I check here I give the green light for any of the other 2 people to try and steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

So don't give them a chance to steal. Raise! This is not a great flop but its not bad either. You have aces up, with no low on the board. You have a fair chance of scooping the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet and get called, I feel that they might have the Jack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely, that's information you want to have. With the flop, you are worried about two hands. Jxxx and 33xx. If you want to play your A-A well, you need to know how likely it is one of your opponents has these hands. Sit down and do the math. You should find that with two opponents, there is about a 33% chance one of them has a J. (Add in the 3-3 and your odds of having the best hand drop further.) Now take these odds and apply them to your opponents. This is why the way you played your A-A is so hard. BTW, the basic odds of having a J or a 3-3 is just the start of your thinking process. You raised, so would your opponents call you with 33xx? Jxxx?

[ QUOTE ]
This is just an example, but it is frustrating when other players play these type hands really fast and hard and win the whole pot with a pair of aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

The most dangerous thing in poker is letting your play be affected by what you see on the table. Pick a strategy and stick with it. (If it doesn't work then fine tune it, but only after refelction.) The people you see winning with A-A have most likley decided they are going to bet the pot for at least two rounds before the flop. If you are not willing to play this aggressively, then you can't get yourself into this situation with the pre-flop raise.

[JesusSmurf]

The probelem also is that if I do lead out and bet, most opponents( I think) would be asking themselves. What is the chance of me potting preflop and then actually having a jack in my hand when the flop comes. They have a great stealing opportunity. I bet half pot, they double that bet, and now what?
If you think about it they probably are saying you dont have a jack and I am going to take this pot from you. But you just never know. Very hard situation for me, that gets expensive when I am wrong.

I realize that sometimes you have to lay down the best hand. It is inevitable. But I guess the best answer is to know what your opponents are capable of doing. If they are capable of making a steal play on you, then call. If they play tight as rocks and make the same play then probably fold. I guess?

[ QUOTE ]
The probelem also is that if I do lead out and bet, most opponents( I think) would be asking themselves. What is the chance of me potting preflop and then actually having a jack in my hand when the flop comes. They have a great stealing opportunity. I bet half pot, they double that bet, and now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise again! When you lay down the best hand, it should only be due to the fact that you incorrectly believe that you are beat.

[JesusSmurf]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you only playing these hands?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I do mix it up, I think rather well, depending on the players and the position. I have problems with these type hands though, because they present a lot of trouble for me. I also am one of the players that will try to steal when I dont have much and a flop comes out that I didnt think helped my opponent. I dont make this play all the time, but I do do it. I think that is why I always fear that people are doing the same to me. When I am wrong, it is expensive that is for sure.

[TGoldman]

[ QUOTE ]
The probelem also is that if I do lead out and bet, most opponents( I think) would be asking themselves. What is the chance of me potting preflop and then actually having a jack in my hand when the flop comes. They have a great stealing opportunity. I bet half pot, they double that bet, and now what?

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's turn the situation around. Let's say your opponent potted it pre-flop and got two callers (including you) and the flop shows a pair. The villain then bets half of the pot. How often are you bluff-raising the villain holding nothing? I would guess that your answer is rarely/never and that you're being paranoid about getting bluffed out of the hand. True, sometimes it will happen. Perhaps more often at the $400 level. It's my experience at the $200 level and below where I play, that most of the time people simply play their cards and fold if they don't have a jack because they just don't want to risk that 1) you don't have a jack and 2) you'll fold AAxx.

[gergery]

Tough spot. This comes up fairly often.

I will use several different lines: Bet-fold, bet-call, check-call, check-fold.
It all depends on my opponents, my table image, the particular cards/suits that paired the board, the number of opponents and so forth.

I will say that always playing aggressively in the that spot is clearly incorrect, as is any Always rule in poker.

There is no clear, easy cookie cutter advice for this spot.

-g

[Wolffink]

This has been a good thread.

I liked Gergery's answer. I thought you'd clarify things and you did by saying it's unclear.

No, I'm not being sarcastic. I see this situation now as being unclear with how you play dependent on other factors. If there were 5 players in the pot, you'd check & fold. If it's head to head, and I get a low draw on the turn, they are going to have show me a jack. If the cutoff raises the pot and he's tight, it's different from the LAG in last position betting. In some situations it's playable to bet, call the re-raise. I'm still not sure what you do on the turn. I suppose check and see if Villain backs off trying to steal the pot if he really was. If he bets the pot again on the turn, if you have no low draw, I assume you fold, yes? If you have the low draw it's tougher. I'd say fold since most likely your two pair aren't good and you are only playing for half the pot. If you do call, and the low doesn't come in--do you call the pot-size river bet to pick off the bluff now? I'd say no.

One big problem is that even if Villain is bluffing on the flop, even without a jack, he could still make a full house on the turn or on the river and we lose our stack.

Nasty situation. If you do play the hand, be ready to fold on the turn or river, I say. If Villain keeps firing away on a bluff, you'll get his money on another hand.

[gergery]

And per Cero's post in the other thread, Fwiw, I personally rarely raise from EP in a full game.

The decision on whether to raise preflop in PLO8 is for me more dependent on opponents and position than on my cards, tho they do matter.

-g

Here's what I do. The pot is $14, put in $3 and see what they do. If they raise, fold. If they call, bet strong if the low draw (or ace) comes on the turn, otherwise check (or bet another $2) and prepare to fold on any raise. The small raise will scare players to call when they are behind.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I do. The pot is $14, put in $3 and see what they do. If they raise, fold. If they call, bet strong if the low draw (or ace) comes on the turn, otherwise check (or bet another $2) and prepare to fold on any raise. The small raise will scare players to call when they are behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this line is less than optimal.

[JesusSmurf]

Hello, Here is an add on.I had to go back and search through some tables to find it.I admit I got lucky on this hand. But once again I thought the guy was making a play on me. I usually run into situations like this and lose it all, like I probably should have done here>

#Game No : 3105182236
***** Hand History for Game 3105182236 *****
$2000 PL Omaha Hi/Lo - Sunday, November 27, 16:50:18 EDT 2005
Table Table 64745 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: CaliSugarDad ( $2886.80 )
Seat 3: tkoJoe ( $3159.83 )
Seat 5: bongo6832 ( $489.43 )
Seat 7: Saberr ( $780 )
Seat 8: UTINKITUPID ( $822.51 )
Seat 9: xxxccc ( $2038.32 )
Seat 10: swamisez2 ( $1128 )
Seat 6: skys_poppet ( $961.29 )
Seat 4: jonthegreek3 ( $1460.31 )
Seat 2: ValueCheck ( $1082 )
xxxccc posts small blind [$10].
swamisez2 posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ValueCheck [ Ad 5d 2h Ah ]
CaliSugarDad folds.
ValueCheck raises [$55].
tkoJoe folds.
jonthegreek3 folds.
bongo6832 folds.
skys_poppet folds.
Saberr calls [$55].
UTINKITUPID folds.
xxxccc folds.
swamisez2 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, 2c, 3d ]
ValueCheck bets [$100].
Saberr calls [$100].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
ValueCheck checks.
Saberr bets [$337].
ValueCheck calls [$337].
** Dealing River ** [ As ]
ValueCheck is all-In [$590]
Saberr is all-In [$288]
ValueCheck shows [ Ad, 5d, 2h, Ah ] a full house, Aces full of threes.
Saberr doesn't show [ 3s, 4d, Ac, 4s ] a full house, Threes full of aces.
ValueCheck wins $302 from side pot #1 with a full house, Aces full of threes.
ValueCheck wins $1587 from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of threes.
There was no qualifying low hand.
Game #3105188213 starts.

[JesusSmurf]

Would you have played this hand differnetly? I thought I played it correctly. Help me:

#Game No : 3104777369
***** Hand History for Game 3104777369 *****
$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo - Sunday, November 27, 15:27:03 EDT 2005
Table Table 64749 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 5: crazyjohnny7 ( $466.20 )
Seat 6: Titans4Evr ( $224 )
Seat 8: SHABO8 ( $614.30 )
Seat 10: ashleya ( $377.30 )
Seat 1: ValueCheck ( $341.20 )
Seat 3: crazyboutsue ( $595.40 )
Seat 9: LordLemon ( $540.15 )
Seat 7: IamURnot ( $122.57 )
Seat 2: pagoda ( $400 )
Seat 4: MurphyTheDog ( $392.55 )
crazyjohnny7 posts small blind [$2].
Titans4Evr posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ValueCheck [ Th Ad Qc 2s ]
IamURnot folds.
SHABO8 folds.
LordLemon calls [$4].
ashleya folds.
ValueCheck calls [$4].
crazyboutsue raises [$8].
MurphyTheDog calls [$8].
crazyjohnny7 folds.
Titans4Evr calls [$4].
LordLemon calls [$4].
ValueCheck calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, Jh, 6d ]
Titans4Evr checks.
LordLemon checks.
ValueCheck checks.
crazyboutsue bets [$39.90].
MurphyTheDog folds.
Titans4Evr calls [$39.90].
LordLemon folds.
ValueCheck calls [$39.90].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
Titans4Evr checks.
ValueCheck checks.
crazyboutsue bets [$158.70].
Titans4Evr folds.
ValueCheck is all-In [$293.30]
crazyboutsue calls [$134.60].
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
crazyboutsue shows [ 4d, 9h, Ah, As ] two pairs, aces and jacks.
ValueCheck doesn't show [ Th, Ad, Qc, 2s ] two pairs, queens and jacks.
crazyboutsue wins $745.30 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and jacks.
There was no qualifying low hand.
Table Closed

[Cooker]

I don't understand why you call the flop here. Your hand is a solid starting hand, and one I wouldn't mind calling a raise with preflop, but I am looking for a better flop fit than this. You have very thin high prospects, and your low hand is often going to be quartered when you make it and has no counterfit protection. Considering that there has already been a pot bet and call before you I say it is very likely someone else has A2. If it was bet then folded to you then maybe you can chase a nut low and hope to get lucky for high, but I wouldn't want to chase where my reward for hitting will likely be to get half my stack back.

You should probably fold on the turn, but you do gain some interesting prospects. You could hit a K to make the nut high and scoop, you still have a nut low draw just in case, and now a diamond gives you a solid river bluff that may steal the pot. I don't think the stacks are deep enough to be able to try this play however so you should probably fold. You also might want to make a small blocking bet to see if you can get to the river with a pot sized bet left, so that you can bluff at a diamond. I think check raising all in was pretty much the worst play you could make at this point, but we all make mistakes. I don't see any reason for playing it this way. You probably have the worst hand, he will probably call since the raise is small, and you have very slim prospects to actually improve to the best hand.

In summary, I fold the flop, I fold the turn.

[Cooker]

First, this hand is a world different from the JJ3 flop you gave in your example. I am very likely to give credit for a low trips and you should be too. However, you have no idea what is going on because you check the turn. Now his bet could mean anything and you have no reason to put him on a 3. I would try a half pot bet on the turn. If you are raised or even called be ready to give up unless you make a nut low or spike an A. If the player was extremely aggressive and prone to bluff at acare cards then you may check call all the way, but otherwise I make a medium bet and am folding to any further action.