How about a summary of Post-Flop lines?

[IGMorton]

Can anyone spare the time to give a fairly clear definition of what a few post-flop lines refer to? This should help avoid repeated questions from newcomers as well clarify discussions for more experienced players. A simple paragraph summarizing how and why the common lines are used would be appreciated.

-Way ahead / Way Behind
-Stop and Go
-Free Show Down
-Rope A Dope
-etc...

[ArturiusX]

I'm not sure if there's really 'common lines' persay, each line is for a unique situation, and you should have variation in your game.

[NateDog]

I think OP is just looking for a list of definitions and when each line may be applicable.

[IGMorton]

i simply mean "common" phrases used around here. People say these things all the time in posts. Yet it often appears that two different posters had different interpretations of what pattern of play those words describe.

Most of these "lines" are not clearly defined in the poker literature. It wouldn't hurt to have a general consensus on what we mean when we say something.

[NateDog]

Like this? WA/WB OOP = c/c c/c bet?

[IGMorton]

yeah, thanks.

i do feel that i usually know what people are talking about. but it is not always clear, as demonstrated amoungst the guys in high stakes forum:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4001432&page=1

[deception5]

Here are the first 2... I'll do the others in the morning if no one else has...

Way ahead way behind

Button raises, hero calls in the BB with A7o.

Flop A23. Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.
Turn 9. Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.
River 8. Hero bets. (Whether to call a raise or not is player dependent).

Realize how hard it would be for villian to raise a hand like AT here (which he would bet if we checked) and that he will probably check QQ behind if we check but call a bet.

Stop and Go

Hero is BB with K4. Villian calls on the button, small blind folds, hero checks.

Flop is KT2. Hero bets, villian raises, hero calls.

Turn is a 4. Hero bets.

[waffle]

screwplay

you are out of position with the initiative in a heads up pot on the flop.

hero bets, villian calls.

turn.

hero checks, villian bets, hero says fu and raises.

[LoaferGee12]

Don't think I've ever heard of Rope a Dope.

[waffle]

free showdown

you are in position without the initiative in a heads up pot on the turn.

villian bets, hero raises, villian calls.

river.

villian checks, hero checks.

[waffle]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't think I've ever heard of Rope a Dope.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't think of a standard definition right now, but it involves a lot of calling. the idea is to let a villian who is often bluffing continue to bluff, where a raise might knock him off his bluffs and let him 3bet his best hands.

[DMBFan23]

WA/WB basically means that either you or villain have 2-3 outs, so you want one bet to go in on each street.

OLD school thread where I first learned it. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=&Number=993638&page=0&vie w=&sb=5&o=14&fpart=all)

one beef I have with the way ppl talk about it now is that just flopping an A or K doesn't qualify...you also need to be able to put villain on a hand range that is roughly 50/50 against yours. there have been a couple of times I've seen the line advocated in micro, for example, it was actually way way more likely that hero was ahead, and his opponent could still hold draws.

It's also discussed on pgs. 133-135 of HPFAP, "Playing Good Hands When it is Three Bets Before the Flop"

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't think I've ever heard of Rope a Dope.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't think of a standard definition right now, but it involves a lot of calling. the idea is to let a villian who is often bluffing continue to bluff, where a raise might knock him off his bluffs and let him 3bet his best hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise first in on the button w/ AQ, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop is A 7 3, BB bets.

[TTChamp]

wa/wb in position, is to call if the other guy bets and (generally-depends on opponent and baord) to bet if he checks to you. The idea is to maximize your profit when ahead and minimize your losses when behind. Here is an applicable scenario. You raise on button with A5, BB 3 bets, flop comes A29r. You are either way in front of BB's pp or way behind his bigger ace. If you raise you just stop him from bluffin a weaker hand and you pay more to a stronger hand, so calling is just better.

wa/wb out of position is check/call the flop, check/call the turn, and bet the river (again opponent and board specifc). Imagine button raises and you call in BB w A5. Flop is A29r. You want him to bet his weaker hand while minimizing the amount you pay to a stonger hand. The river bet is designed to prevent him from checking behind with his pp. The river bet is particularly effective when a backdoor draw comes in on the river because he will be unlikely to raise you even if you are beat, but will not likely fold his weaker hand. Also, you can typically fold the river is he raises you (dangerous if you have zero read on your opponent).

Stop and go is when you are out of position and your opponent raises you on the flop (applies on the turn too I suppose, but it usually referenced wrt flopp and turn). Rather than 3 betting him and leading the turn, you decide to call his flop raise and lead out on the turn. Most common time to stop and go is when you think someone is raisng for a free card on you (flop has two suited cards for example). Here is an example where i think it is appropriate (others may disagree). MP player limps and you raise in SB w QQ, BB folds and MP calls. Flop comes Kc Th 5h. You bet and the MP player raises. He could easily have a flush draw, JQ, or have paired the Ten or 5. You don't want to give him free cards, but you also don't want to spew chips at his pair of Kings. You just call the flop raise (stop) and then lead the turn when a card like 3s comes (go). If he raises you again you can more confidently fold (again, dangerous without a read), or call the turn bet and fold on the river.

Free show down is a play that you use when you are in postion and you have a strong enough hand to go to show down. Also, you suspect your opponent either has a slightly better hand or a worse hand that has draws. The idea is that you are going to pay two bets to a better hand any way so you might as well make sure that your opponent pays two bets with his weaker hand. An added bonus is if your opponent is weak and may fold a better hand or a hand with a lot of outs.

Here is an example. You are on the button with KJ and you raise. SB and BB call. Flop comes J98r. SB checks, BB bets out, you raise, SB folds and BB 3 bets, you call. Ace comes on the turn, and the BB leads out. The pot has gotten relatively big so you want to get to show down. If you raise and he 3 bets you can confidently fold knowing that he either has a str8 or set and you are drawing dead. Most opponents would just call with there 2 pair once the ace hits the turn. The idea of raising the turn is that it doen't cost you anymore when you are behind (because most hands that marginally beat you will check the river), but it maximixes the price for your opponent to see the river when he is behind but drawing. For example, in the above scenario, the BB might have QJ, JT, or 9T. A good player might even lead the turn and then Check/Fold the river unimproved with one of these hands.

Not sure what rope-a-dope is. I think that is when you check raise a guy on every street. Sort of the opposite of stop and go.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure what rope-a-dope is. I think that is when you check raise a guy on every street. Sort of the opposite of stop and go.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be a trifecta.

Rope-A-Dope means allow a player to keep bluffing into you by not raising if you expect he will fold his bluff - hand him a rope to hang himself.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
screwplay

you are out of position with the initiative in a heads up pot on the flop.

hero bets, villian calls.

turn.

hero checks, villian bets, hero says fu and raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing I'd add about this one is that hero does not have a strong hand, probably something like overcards. At least that's my understanding.

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't think I've ever heard of Rope a Dope.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't think of a standard definition right now, but it involves a lot of calling. the idea is to let a villian who is often bluffing continue to bluff, where a raise might knock him off his bluffs and let him 3bet his best hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise first in on the button w/ AQ, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop is A 7 3, BB bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theres a river raise here right? Or turn at least? Somewhere!?

[waffle]

screwplaying with missed overs is burning money imo.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
screwplaying with missed overs is burning money imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what sort of hand would you usually do this with? Is this the hepfap thing you do with AK on an ace high board when your opponent is often taking shots when you give up on the turn?

[BugsBunny]

I'd raise/call the river here if opp is still betting.

gainst some opps I might consider raise/fold, but it's hard to be that sure, many people would 3 bet here with AJ/AT. In order to consider a fold you need a relatively passive player, in a HU situation, that won't 3 bet here without at least 2 pair.

Some opps will think that you're trying to steal the pot and 3 bet you with much weaker holdings, including middle pair or worse. So you need a good read to even consider folding if you're 3 bet.

[BugsBunny]

Not always - it can be a very strong semi-bluff play, but it depends on the board and the opp and how he views you. As a standard line I agree though.

[PygmyHero]

Hi OP -

You may want to check out a post I made here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3980893) There are 4 links to threads discussing WA/WB, and then the bottom one (don't be fooled by the post name), is a great resource where Shillx gives an explanation and example of 5-6 different lines he uses.

I once read a great explanation of the stop and go by Nate tha' Great, but I can't find it right now. I will edit / re-post if I find it later.

[waffle]

[ QUOTE ]

So what sort of hand would you usually do this with? Is this the hepfap thing you do with AK on an ace high board when your opponent is often taking shots when you give up on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do it with strong hands against people who:

1.) automatically bet when checked to
and
2.) can't fold

[damaniac]

Yeah, against aggro players I like to c/r TPGK hands, especially if I've been on a stealing bend lately. It often gets them to bet a hand which they would have folded otherwise (folding to the raise but giving up an extra bet), or to put in two bets instead of 1 with TPWK or middle pair or something. I notice most players simply can't fold a decent hand to this line.

[dealer_toe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
screwplaying with missed overs is burning money imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what sort of hand would you usually do this with? Is this the hepfap thing you do with AK on an ace high board when your opponent is often taking shots when you give up on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do it With a set on boards that I think villain doesn't want me to see the river for free.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]

You may want to check out a post I made here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3980893)

[/ QUOTE ]

Impressive thread, man. Very nice work.

/mc

PS. Oblivion rocks.

[IGMorton]

excellent detailed response. thanks.

[PygmyHero]

[ QUOTE ]
I once read a great explanation of the stop and go by Nate tha' Great, but I can't find it right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
I found it. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=1103806&an=&page=0&v c=1)

Sorry it took me so long.