Racist or not?...you make the call.

[chesspain]

Joe Tall's recent post got me thinking about how racism is often inferred by the context in which one might use racially offensive or insensitive phrases. On more than one occasion up here in lilly-white New Hampshire, I've had patients say the following anti-semetic phrase in the context of a normal conversation such as:

Yeah, I met with the guy who responded to my ad about the truck for sale, but he tried to Jew me down on the price...

[Claunchy]

I voted racist just because I don't really see how you can argue that it's not racist at all, but it's the Diet Coke of racism if anything. This statement wouldn't jar me or cause me to speak out.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
it's the Diet Coke of racism

[/ QUOTE ]

Just one calorie, not racist enough!

It's quasi-racism.

It's the margarine of racism.

[BobboFitos]

this is 100% racism. im shocked it's split atm.

You have a doctorate in psychology and you need to ask this question?

[diebitter]

I can't believe it's not racism

[slipoker]

It's a racist figure of speech, that even if used does not imply that the person who is using it is racist. I've said it before, I know many people who've said it before, and I don't believe that it makes you a racist person. Maybe not the most politically correct person, but yeah. The statement is racist.

[Jeebus]

Post deleted by astroglide

[ilya]

are you serious?! of course that's racist! anyone who says that non-ironically is almost certainly never setting foot inside my house or getting any business from me.

[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig" You would never use it in front of a black guy, but if you did he would only be, at the most, minorly irriatated

[/ QUOTE ]

please use it in a sentence and find me a black person who would only be minorly irritated.

[Landon_McFly]

I think that the best play here is after the guy says that, just make a face like u farted. He knows what he said was racist, and if you don't give him any positive feedback he'll probably feel like a douche, and second-guess it before he ever says it again /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[antidan444]

Racial stereotypes = racist the vast majority of the time, especially in non-joking situations.

[Jeebus]

I could get my roommate to niggerrid a response but he's asleep right now. I guess it all depends on how serious you think the person is. I would never use the term in front of a person I didn't know.

On second though I think you are right, it is racist but It is a kind of term that can be taken as ambivalant by people who are associated.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
He knows what he said was racist, and if you don't give him any positive feedback he'll probably feel like a douche, and second-guess it before he ever says it again /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I believe that the majority of the time these individuals didn't think they were saying anything racist or inflammatory.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
You have a doctorate in psychology and you need to ask this question?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I only wanted my opinion I'ld just poll myself.

[ClaytonN]

Since "Jew", politically speaking, is sort of a not 100% race because it's also a religion, this is on the border of racism.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have a doctorate in psychology and you need to ask this question?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I only wanted my opinion I'ld just poll myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, in these matters, those are the best polls, or at least the only ones that make a difference.

[-Skeme-]

What about gipped? I said that in class once and my teacher flipped her cookie. "I don't wanna hear you say that in my class room ever again!" I reply with a confused look, "I said gipped not japped." She wasn't amused.

Is it like.. a disrespectful term against.. gypsys?

[Brainwalter]

[ QUOTE ]
Racial stereotypes = racist the vast majority of the time, especially in non-joking situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone said this I would assume they were probably joking. I can't remember ever hearing someone say something like this and actually mean to imply that they believe jews are cheaper than gentiles.

[Skipbidder]

[ QUOTE ]
What about gipped? I said that in class once and my teacher flipped her cookie. "I don't wanna hear you say that in my class room ever again!" I reply with a confused look, "I said gipped not japped." She wasn't amused.

Is it like.. a disrespectful term against.. gypsys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, "gyped", from Gypsy (Roma).
Few people who use it know the origin, and some others argue for a different etymology.

She played this one wrong. It was a teaching moment, not a flipping-out moment.

[InchoateHand]

Don't make me do the nigger work.

[JaBlue]

clearly racist

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't make me do the nigger work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahaha.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Anti-semitic. Not even close. Heard the phrase for the first time in college, and as a jew was pretty pissed off about it. I guess that's one way to define racism, that a person of that race/religion/ethnicity feels insulted by the comment. Sure, some are overly sensitive, and this is not the best measure of racism, but I know few jews who would particularly like the phrase.

Oddly, my parents, who were always sensitive to any anti-semitism they saw, showed a pattern of using offensive terms to describe other ethnic minorities. Strange that people do that without getting the irony.

[ QUOTE ]


If I only wanted my opinion I'd just poll myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

tee hee. <font color="white"> think about it </font>

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig" You would never use it in front of a black guy, but if you did he would only be, at the most, minorly irriatated

[/ QUOTE ]

please use it in a sentence and find me a black person who would only be minorly irritated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most blacks I know, and I know a lot - my city's population is over 1/4 black and I live on the poorer side of town.

Edit: I found that the people that would most get offended at such a term are either a) whites or b) educated or middle-to-upper class blacks. You can clearly see signs of racism amongst some of the middle-to-upper class blacks, similar to Chris Rock's "black people and niggers" distinction, or the division of light and dark skinned blacks in New Orleans.

Then again, racism - or relics of them - have been around so long here that it's done without thought.

[Weatherhead03]

Anti-semitic.

[Jack of Arcades]

I wonder if people would have the same repsonse if your example used the word "gypped."

I voted racist, based on the implicit assumption that "jew" is a race. If we want to get nitty, I'll say it's not racist.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if people would have the same repsonse if your example used the word "gypped."

[/ QUOTE ]

it just occurred to me that this was a slur against the gypsies. and i've used it for how long? holy [censored]

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if people would have the same repsonse if your example used the word "gypped."

[/ QUOTE ]

it just occurred to me that this was a slur against the gypsies. and i've used it for how long? holy [censored]

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't even mention blackballed.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if people would have the same repsonse if your example used the word "gypped."

[/ QUOTE ]

Gypped as in gypsie? I never knew that's where that word came from, I guess I assumed it was spelled jipped.

I was thinking that this is so commonly in use it isn't racist, but then I realized that's a stupid thing to think and it is racist.

[roundest]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if people would have the same repsonse if your example used the word "gypped."

[/ QUOTE ]

it just occurred to me that this was a slur against the gypsies. and i've used it for how long? holy [censored]

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't even mention blackballed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The word blackball has absolutely nothing to do with race.

[SackUp]

Of course it is racist. Anything that singles out a group and uses a stereoype will be racist.

However, the more pertinent question in my mind is whether it is offensive or at least in context does it matter?

I've used this phrase before and laugh my butt off when they makes jokes about this on south park. Do I think jews are tight with money and try to rip people off? No. In fact most of the jews I know are very giving and charitable. And if asked why I laugh at the jokes I'm not really sure.

Maybe it has to do with social grooming or maybe I find the sterotypes as ironic or maybe they are just fun to joke around with b/c in my mind they don't really matter. To me calling someone jewish b/c they are tight with money just translates in my mind that someone is tight with money. Not that all jewish people are tight with money. Using the word jew in this context is associated with being tight with money but has really no association with being jewish. I don't know if that will make sense to everyone, but for me there can be clear distinctions made.

Regardless of the context, the comments are still racists and do indeed promote stereotypes and racism. However, I do find a lot of jokes funny and think that context really matters.

[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig"

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this term mean?

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if people would have the same repsonse if your example used the word "gypped."

[/ QUOTE ]

it just occurred to me that this was a slur against the gypsies. and i've used it for how long? holy [censored]

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't even mention blackballed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The word blackball has absolutely nothing to do with race.

[/ QUOTE ]
No sh1t Sherlock. How about 'humourless'?

[Duke]

After a certain point a term loses all of the racially motivated meaning. I doubt anyone in the last 30 years has said "jew you down" while thinking: "I hate jews because enough of them are fiscally responsible so as to warrant stereotyping."

EDIT: ok I misused the quick reply thing. This should be in response to the first post in this thread.

~D

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig"

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this term mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've also heard the term be used as the less offensive "jerry rig"

It basically means that you fix or make something using spare or random parts. For example. Say your car broke a belt. Well instead of getting a new belt you decide to tie together some socks, wire, and glue to make a new belt. It is much like being McGuyver.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
After a certain point a term loses all of the racially motivated meaning. I doubt anyone in the last 30 years has said "jew you down" while thinking: "I hate jews because enough of them are fiscally responsible so as to warrant stereotyping."

EDIT: ok I misused the quick reply thing. This should be in response to the first post in this thread.

~D

[/ QUOTE ]

this was exactly my point. many phrases are now just terms of art and have nothing to do with their original stereotypic meaning.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if people would have the same repsonse if your example used the word "gypped."

[/ QUOTE ]

it just occurred to me that this was a slur against the gypsies. and i've used it for how long? holy [censored]

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't even mention blackballed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The word blackball has absolutely nothing to do with race.

[/ QUOTE ]
No sh1t Sherlock. How about 'humourless'?

[/ QUOTE ]

When do we get to talk about anti-asian sentiment in math classes? Why do they have to call it a "slope" instead of just an "m" (in y=mx+b)? I think it has to do with asians being stereotypically good at math.

~D

jew isnt a race

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Am I the only one who just finds racist expressions and racial slurs absurdly funny? Aren't we at the point now where racism is more or less gone? Ive never seen a person and be like "Oh no he's XXX I don't want to hang with him" I just find the terms horribly funny since they offend people and yet they can never say why exactly. It's the equivalent of Raptor's HOLLA signature. He could post pure [censored] gold in the strategy forums and people will completely ignore because of that one line. It's so beautiful. The best way to drop a racial joke is to be friends with a guy for 2 weeks, then drop the single most offensive one you know, brownie points if regards his ethnicity. There is the best pause of akward silence followed by immediate realization of how stupid him being offended was.

[roundest]

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't we at the point now where racism is more or less gone?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who just finds racist expressions and racial slurs absurdly funny?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I think they're hilarious. I love them.

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't we at the point now where racism is more or less gone? Ive never seen a person and be like "Oh no he's XXX I don't want to hang with him"

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not just what racism is. Racism is feeling superior because of race. There's also very much prejudice around, assuming something about someone because of their race. Usually negative.

Goddamn, I just had a major fit of deja vu for some reason.

[Skipbidder]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig"

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this term mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've also heard the term be used as the less offensive "jerry rig"

It basically means that you fix or make something using spare or random parts. For example. Say your car broke a belt. Well instead of getting a new belt you decide to tie together some socks, wire, and glue to make a new belt. It is much like being McGuyver.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something can be jury-rigged or jerry-built. You are talking about jury-rigged with the MacGyver stuff.

Jerry-built is just plain badly made.

[whiskeytown]

Never heard the phrase till I heard it in a movie - must be an Eastern thing...

But I grew up in MT - When you were racist there, it was against the Indians, but we weren't exactly inviting to the African American community neither.

RB

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig"

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this term mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've also heard the term be used as the less offensive "jerry rig"

It basically means that you fix or make something using spare or random parts. For example. Say your car broke a belt. Well instead of getting a new belt you decide to tie together some socks, wire, and glue to make a new belt. It is much like being McGuyver.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something can be jury-rigged or jerry-built. You are talking about jury-rigged with the MacGyver stuff.

Jerry-built is just plain badly made.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can say it's jury-rigged all you want, but at this point both are typically accepted and probably somewhat broken down by region as to what is typically used.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

jerry-rig

SYLLABICATION: jer·ry-rig
PRONUNCIATION: jr-rg
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: jer·ry-·rigged, jer·ry-·rig·ging, jer·ry-·rigs
To jury-rig.
ETYMOLOGY: Alteration (influenced by jerry-build) of jury-rig.

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig"

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this term mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've also heard the term be used as the less offensive "jerry rig"

It basically means that you fix or make something using spare or random parts. For example. Say your car broke a belt. Well instead of getting a new belt you decide to tie together some socks, wire, and glue to make a new belt. It is much like being McGuyver.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something can be jury-rigged or jerry-built. You are talking about jury-rigged with the MacGyver stuff.

Jerry-built is just plain badly made.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can say it's jury-rigged all you want, but at this point both are typically accepted and probably somewhat broken down by region as to what is typically used.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

jerry-rig

SYLLABICATION: jer·ry-rig
PRONUNCIATION: jr-rg
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: jer·ry-·rigged, jer·ry-·rig·ging, jer·ry-·rigs
To jury-rig.
ETYMOLOGY: Alteration (influenced by jerry-build) of jury-rig.

[/ QUOTE ]


stupidity strikes again, how refreshing!

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig"

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this term mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've also heard the term be used as the less offensive "jerry rig"

It basically means that you fix or make something using spare or random parts. For example. Say your car broke a belt. Well instead of getting a new belt you decide to tie together some socks, wire, and glue to make a new belt. It is much like being McGuyver.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something can be jury-rigged or jerry-built. You are talking about jury-rigged with the MacGyver stuff.

Jerry-built is just plain badly made.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can say it's jury-rigged all you want, but at this point both are typically accepted and probably somewhat broken down by region as to what is typically used.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

jerry-rig

SYLLABICATION: jer·ry-rig
PRONUNCIATION: jr-rg
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: jer·ry-·rigged, jer·ry-·rig·ging, jer·ry-·rigs
To jury-rig.
ETYMOLOGY: Alteration (influenced by jerry-build) of jury-rig.

[/ QUOTE ]


stupidity strikes again, how refreshing!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-jur1.htm

If you want to try and correct it one person at a time though have fun.

[The once and future king]

Yes but was he playing the jewish piano?

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig"

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this term mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've also heard the term be used as the less offensive "jerry rig"

It basically means that you fix or make something using spare or random parts. For example. Say your car broke a belt. Well instead of getting a new belt you decide to tie together some socks, wire, and glue to make a new belt. It is much like being McGuyver.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something can be jury-rigged or jerry-built. You are talking about jury-rigged with the MacGyver stuff.

Jerry-built is just plain badly made.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can say it's jury-rigged all you want, but at this point both are typically accepted and probably somewhat broken down by region as to what is typically used.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

jerry-rig

SYLLABICATION: jer·ry-rig
PRONUNCIATION: jr-rg
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: jer·ry-·rigged, jer·ry-·rig·ging, jer·ry-·rigs
To jury-rig.
ETYMOLOGY: Alteration (influenced by jerry-build) of jury-rig.

[/ QUOTE ]


stupidity strikes again, how refreshing!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-jur1.htm

If you want to try and correct it one person at a time though have fun.

[/ QUOTE ]


you understand what i was saying, right? i was not doubting your claim, i was merely lamenting the fact that people who can't get it right grow in number and eventually what's "right" gets changed.

[BeerMoney]

Who cares.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
On more than one occasion up here in lilly-white New Hampshire, I've had patients say the following anti-semetic phrase in the context of a normal conversation such as:

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't think you might be skewing the results a bit?

-McGee

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
but I know few jews who would particularly like the phrase.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people I know who use that phrase regularly are all Jews.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]

The people I know who use that phrase regularly are all Jews.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty cool!

Also, can't be bothered to argue this, but isn't this positive discrimination (I also can't be bothered to argue the good/bad of +ve discrimination).

Isn't it like saying a Jew is a tough cookie in business?

[razor]

Though I don't recall having used the phrase, I have certainly heard it used on occasion. Until recently I had never considered how the word was spelled or what the origin of the phrase was, thus missing its 'obvious' reference to a specific group of people, to me it was just a phrase.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig"

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this term mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've also heard the term be used as the less offensive "jerry rig"

It basically means that you fix or make something using spare or random parts. For example. Say your car broke a belt. Well instead of getting a new belt you decide to tie together some socks, wire, and glue to make a new belt. It is much like being McGuyver.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something can be jury-rigged or jerry-built. You are talking about jury-rigged with the MacGyver stuff.

Jerry-built is just plain badly made.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can say it's jury-rigged all you want, but at this point both are typically accepted and probably somewhat broken down by region as to what is typically used.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

jerry-rig

SYLLABICATION: jer·ry-rig
PRONUNCIATION: jr-rg
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: jer·ry-·rigged, jer·ry-·rig·ging, jer·ry-·rigs
To jury-rig.
ETYMOLOGY: Alteration (influenced by jerry-build) of jury-rig.

[/ QUOTE ]


stupidity strikes again, how refreshing!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-jur1.htm

If you want to try and correct it one person at a time though have fun.

[/ QUOTE ]


you understand what i was saying, right? i was not doubting your claim, i was merely lamenting the fact that people who can't get it right grow in number and eventually what's "right" gets changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

well considering it is slang, who cares if it is modified over time? Words often are. Hence the phrase has gone from "jury rigged" all the way to "nigger rigged" and even "jerry rigged"

The right use is the use that conveys the message. It is the point that is important, not the phraseology.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I know few jews who would particularly like the phrase.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people I know who use that phrase regularly are all Jews.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Georgia Avenue]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The people I know who use that phrase regularly are all Jews.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty cool!

Also, can't be bothered to argue this, but isn't this positive discrimination (I also can't be bothered to argue the good/bad of +ve discrimination).

Isn't it like saying a Jew is a tough cookie in business?

[/ QUOTE ]

I could be bothered, so no, saying that Jews are misers and cheats isn't really positive stereotyping. I for one think that even positive sterotypes are hurtful. The fact is that there's a huge difference between South Park or Dave Chapelle being ironic about racism and language and some [censored] thinking he's being so anti-PC shock-jockular by slinging around some racial epithets that everyone has to laugh at if they don't want to seem like a wet blanket."Laugh at my lame socially awkward comedy jokes or I will act so self-righteous that you will vomit in your mouth!" Please! Leave the driving to the professionals...

By professionals, I mean: OOTiots, of course. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[HopeydaFish]

When I worked in sales I had a few customers say things like "don't Jew me" and "don't be such a Jew" when they were trying to negotiate for a better deal. I always found it shocking that someone would use this figure of speech when talking to a stranger. For all these people knew, *I* could have been Jewish...but they'd say these things without batting an eyelash.

[Marnixvdb]

Statement racist but not one that would offend or even worry me. User of statement not necessarily racist.

Marnix

[sfer]

Clearly the correct phrase should be "...he tried to Josh me down..."

[Rushmore]

I voted "not racist," but only because it is unclear whether Judaism is a race or a religion.

Maybe a category "not definitively racist" or "bigoted" would have been better.

I would definitely have voted for "bigoted."

[Warik]

I voted not racist because "Jew" is not a race!!!

Wow... it's a shame so many seemingly intelligent people have trouble using a dictionary.

[diebitter]

The amount of ridiculous nitpicking, lack of humour and general pedantry and retardedness in this thread makes me think 2 things
1. This should be in politics
2. I wish they'd implement an 'ignore thread' function even more strongly (and I felt pretty strongly about it after that bloody 'airliner on a moving runway' thread which kept going and going AND going AND going - like the easter bunny hooked up to 3-mile Island.)

Throughout history the Jewish people have considered their race and religion to be intertwined. Only in the more recent centuries have people of non-Jewish descent even entered the Jewish faith. Technically "Jew" is a race, read up about it. And this is racism, but i don't think it would bother me. The terms whitey, honkey, and cracker don't bother me at all. I think the whole thing of getting pissed off about racist remarks is dumb. I've been called much worse things than a slang term meaning "white", but hey, [censored] happens. Move on.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted not racist because "Jew" is not a race!!!

Wow... it's a shame so many seemingly intelligent people have trouble using a dictionary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being Jewish is far closer to a racial than religious thing IMO.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Throughout history the Jewish people have considered their race and religion to be intertwined.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, thanks for clarifying. I guess since the Jewish people "considered" their race and religion to be intertwined that makes the whole "division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type" definition out to be nonsense after all.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go "consider" my bank account to be $10,000,00 and buy myself a "considerably" large house.

[BottlesOf]

I voted "yes" even though whether or not "Jew" is a race is questionable.

It's interesting that this seems a clear yes to me, but if someone were to say they got "gypped" it wouldn't seem nearly as bad.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Throughout history the Jewish people have considered their race and religion to be intertwined.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, thanks for clarifying. I guess since the Jewish people "considered" their race and religion to be intertwined that makes the whole "division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type" definition out to be nonsense after all.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go "consider" my bank account to be $10,000,00 and buy myself a "considerably" large house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does that statement get you so upset?

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does that statement get you so upset?

[/ QUOTE ]

um... I'm not upset.

Just pointing out that he's wrong... though I admit that seeing a lot of other people be wrong as well is somewhat unsettling.

[InchoateHand]

Okay, whats a race then genius?

I'll give you a hint, its a social construct. Thus jews can be a "race" just as well as niggers can.

[B Dids]

Pretty clearly racist, or depending on how you define "race" and "jew" at least offensive and stupid.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, whats a race then genius?

I'll give you a hint, its a social construct. Thus jews can be a "race" just as well as niggers can.

[/ QUOTE ]

1: "A race is a distinct population of humans distinguished in some way from other humans. The most widely observed races are those based on skin color, facial features, ancestry, and genetics. Conceptions of race, as well as specific racial groupings, are often controversial due to their impact on social identity hence identity politics. "

2: "The biological definition of race is an categorization of organisms with differing characteristics while maintaining enough similiarities to be a part of a common genus and species. The word race in this context can be considered synomynious with sub-species."

3: "Biology. an interbreeding subgroup of a species whose individuals are geographically, physiologically, or chromosomally distinct from other members of the species. Anthropology. 1. a geographical variation in the human population, identified by a range of genetic characteristics such as hair and skin color, eye color and shape, facial features, body build, and blood group"

Biology question: If someone with the Jewish gene mates with someone with the Catholic gene, is the offspring Catholic or Jewish? If the offspring ends up being Catholic, will his or her mating with a Muslim lead to a Catholic offspring or a Muslim offspring... or perhaps the dormant Jewish gene will spring forth...? You should be able to answer this question, knowing so much about race.

Oh yeah... that's right... religion is not genetic, while things like skin color are (or "nigger-ness" as you so eloquently put it.)

[InchoateHand]

"2: "The biological definition of race is an categorization of organisms with differing characteristics while maintaining enough similiarities to be a part of a common genus and species. The word race in this context can be considered synomynious with sub-species."

Where is this taken from? Because its completely false. Find me one biologist who won't discredit the notion of "races" as "subspecies" and I'll find you a total moron.

Putting numbers in front of your made up information doesn't lend your idiocy any more credence.

THERE IS MORE GENETIC VARIATION WITHIN SO CALLED RACES THAN BETWEEN THEM IF RAW GENETIC VARIATION WAS THE EQUIVALENCE OF "RACE" THAN THERE WOULD ONLY BE ONE RACE OUTSIDE OF SUBSAHARAN AFRICA.

This is so incredibly old news. Which rock have you been hiding under again?

You equate phenotypic variation with "sub-species..." interesting, a taxonomist you are not.

Seriously, go get yourself educated about the history of "races," and you will find that they are socially constructed notions of in/out group identities. That they shift throughout time--in relation to shifting social meanings.

Since you like numbers so much, please try to define some "races" for me. This should be fun.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Where is this taken from?

[/ QUOTE ]

A dictionary.

[ QUOTE ]
Putting numbers in front of your made up information doesn't lend your idiocy any more credence

[/ QUOTE ]

So I'm an idiot because I know that race and religion are two different things? oook.

[ QUOTE ]
Since you like numbers so much, please try to define some "races" for me. This should be fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a better idea. How about I laugh about the fact that I know I'm right and don't crumble whenever someone makes a Jewish joke and start calling him a racist.

Yeah - I like that idea better.

[InchoateHand]

Way to avoid answering...maybe because you are wrong?

Nice work, I'm glad you "know you are right," I mean, despite the fact that you are wrong. Thats really impressive. I can tell you've done a lot of thinking about this issue.

So your authority was dictionary.com?

Thats laughable.

Whats funnier? That you felt the need to edit an already worthless source.

You are a joke, and a disgrace. Ooops...I said race.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah... that's right... religion is not genetic, while things like skin color are

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all Jews are religious. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Jews were prevented from intermarrying with the rest of the world for large periods of time. Of course the concept of race is nebulous enough that you could argue either way, but to dismiss it off hand just because Judaism is a religion is ignorant.

[djoyce003]

is being jewish considered a "race" wouldn't this be considered something other than "racism" Certainly could be construed as offensive but I consider this more of a slam on religion and not so much race...am I wrong here?

well, real Judaism IS A RACE. That's the whole point. It's supposedly God's chosen race and orthodox Jews can trace their lineage to Israel. but hey, it's a lot more fun to sound smart/clever/nitty/whatever, right?

[djoyce003]

why aren't protestants or catholics a race?

they are white people who have different beliefs than most of the other white people as far as I can tell...most protestants and catholics were jews prior to jesus christ right? How are they a separate race.

How is your reading comprehension? I said orthodox Jews can trace their lineage to Israel. This is not the case for other religions. Think of it this way: you can become catholic, you can't become jewish.

Although technically yes you can convert to the jewish faith, old school rabbinical Jews would never accept you. And yes, they can ask for your papers according to a good friend of mine who is Jewish, however I've never seen these "papers" and don't know anything about them.

edit: oh, and a few more comments. Protestants and Catholics are not necessarily white. As to your question about other faiths being Jewish before they existed, Jewish lineage is determined by the mother. Basically, if your dad is Jewish but your mom isn't, you aren't. That's how other faiths have broken their lineage and thus become not part of the Jewish race. Biologically I guess you could argue that they would be part of it, but it's not strictly a biological thing.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]
How is your reading comprehension? I said orthodox Jews can trace their lineage to Israel. This is not the case for other religions. Think of it this way: you can become catholic, you can't become jewish.

Although technically yes you can convert to the jewish faith, old school rabbinical Jews would never accept you. And yes, they can ask for your papers according to a good friend of mine who is Jewish, however I've never seen these "papers" and don't know anything about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

forgive my ignorance of the jewish faith, but are all jews "orthodox" jews or are there plain jews?

Also as to my reading comprehension, could a catholic whose family converted from judaism 2000 years ago also trace their lineage back to israel? You would agree that at some point christianity arose for the most part from the jewish faith? It wasn't all pagans.

doh, sorry. I answered your question in my edit.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]

edit: oh, and a few more comments. Protestants and Catholics are not necessarily white. As to your question about other faiths being Jewish before they existed, Jewish lineage is determined by the mother. Basically, if your dad is Jewish but your mom isn't, you aren't. That's how other faiths have broken their lineage and thus become not part of the Jewish race. Biologically I guess you could argue that they would be part of it, but it's not strictly a biological thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what you are saying is that jews decided to become their own race based on religion as they are biologically identical to a protestant of the same lineage, they just have different religious beliefs?

[ononimo]

not racist but it IS anti-semetic.

[man]

honestly I think that to call a statement "racist," you have to know the intent and mindset of the person saying it. if it's someone who has an honest prejudice about Jews, then it's probably racist. if it's not, then it's just an inconsiderate thing to say. I didn't vote, because I can't tell.

No, they wouldn't be biologically identical. That's impossible, short of cloning. /images/graemlins/grin.gif What I am saying (I think) is that if you "qualify" for being of the Jewish race, you can trace your matriarchal lineage to Israel. For this instance of race however, the required elements are more than biological. It's actually interesting because it's a race you can opt out of.

[nothumb]

I got yelled at by a white woman in Wendy's for using the term 'niggeritis' in conversation with three black people, all of whom were laughing at the time.

(It means to eat a huge meal and get sleepy.)

But I would never use a phrase like this in conversation with someone I didn't know... it's pretty poor form. If that nosy Jew bitch wasn't eavesdropping there never would have been a problem.

NT

[Hamish McBagpipe]

"I got away with that one scot free." The next time I hear that one I'm crying racism and giving the hate-monger a Glasgow kiss (which is the same as a hockey handshake, btw).

Normally, there are considered 3 races; Negroid, Mongoloid, and Causcasian. You might not like those terms or think that race is just an arbitrary designation but that is how I was taught in University on the subject for a few different classes.

Using the word "Jew" is minorly offensive to me when the correct expression would be "Jewish". "Jew" has a derogatory connotation.

[InchoateHand]

You were educated stupid at university then.

eavesdropping is mad niggerish.

[Hamish McBagpipe]

I didn't say that "race" wasn't a social or mental and therefore arbitrary designation, clownshoe, so what's yer problem?

"Races" are not sub-species.

[Toro]

I voted racist because I think people use it derogatorily. But isn't it really a compliment in that it actually means that you think jewish people are excellent negotiators?

'Jewish'is not a race - it is a religious belief

[LittleOldLady]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig"

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this term mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've also heard the term be used as the less offensive "jerry rig"



[/ QUOTE ]

The word is jury-rigged, and it's a reference to rigging procedures on sailing vessels. Why that should in any way be even the slightest bit offensive, I have no clue.

"Jew me down" is, however, offensive. It does stereotype a minority, and saying that one did not intend to be offensive is not a defense. Insensitivity and lack of awareness do not earn people points.

This reminds me of an incident in the Netherlands. I was up in Friesland with a Dutch friend of mine (from the Brabant in the south of the Netherlands). We had just parked the car, when a gentleman approached us and said that parking was a guilder (about fifty cents at the time) cheaper down the block. As he got back into the car, my friend started in on how cheap and stingy the Frisians are, and I said, "But, Jack, YOU are moving the car."

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
'Jewish'is not a race - it is a religious belief

[/ QUOTE ]
See, I really think this is deserving of an insta-ban. I know my opinion means next-to-nothing to the mods, but I don't foresee great things in this poster's future.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
'Jewish'is not a race - it is a religious belief

[/ QUOTE ]
See, I really think this is deserving of an insta-ban. I know my opinion means next-to-nothing to the mods, but I don't foresee great things in this poster's future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear ya, but I have had many experiences with well-meaning people who say things like this out of total ignorance. People raised in lily-white WASP communities who have had very few relationships with Jews are often under the misconception that to be Jewish only refers to your religion. They simply don't understand the ethnic background and traditional cultural heritage that goes beyond religious beliefs.

I forgive these people their ignorance and don't think they mean any harm when they say such ill-informed things like "Jewish isn't a race, just a religious belief." Well, technically it's not a race but it is an ethnicity and a culture of its own.

[RunDownHouse]

Sorry for being confusing. He deserves an insta-ban because that point has been debated pretty thoroughly over the past few pages, yet he flies in and posts a one-line response that clearly indicates he hasn't read any of the thread.

[Hamish McBagpipe]

[ QUOTE ]
"Jewish isn't a race, just a religious belief." Well, technically it's not a race but it is an ethnicity and a culture of its own.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, there is the religion of Judaism and there is the ethnic group of Jewish people with a distinct culture. But it is not a race as the term has been historically used. The only problem is "just". As a unique ethnic group (and therefore culture) with it's own religion I can see how this kind of ignorance can be offensive.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig" You would never use it in front of a black guy, but if you did he would only be, at the most, minorly irriatated

[/ QUOTE ]

please use it in a sentence and find me a black person who would only be minorly irritated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most blacks I know, and I know a lot - my city's population is over 1/4 black and I live on the poorer side of town.

[/ QUOTE ]
youre not implying black people are poor, are you?

Wow. I posted my reply without reading any responses. Apologies if I offended anyone. I thought someone could become jewish if they did some tests and proved their faith to the appropriate person. I have never had a jewish friend, so not too clued up on it.
I was thinking along technical lines when I considered 'jewish' not a race. I wasn't raised in a lilly white wasp community - there just wasn't a particularly noticeable jewish community.

[LittleOldLady]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, whats a race then genius?

I'll give you a hint, its a social construct. Thus jews can be a "race" just as well as niggers can.

[/ QUOTE ]

1: "A race is a distinct population of humans distinguished in some way from other humans. The most widely observed races are those based on skin color, facial features, ancestry, and genetics. Conceptions of race, as well as specific racial groupings, are often controversial due to their impact on social identity hence identity politics. "

2: "The biological definition of race is an categorization of organisms with differing characteristics while maintaining enough similiarities to be a part of a common genus and species. The word race in this context can be considered synomynious with sub-species."

3: "Biology. an interbreeding subgroup of a species whose individuals are geographically, physiologically, or chromosomally distinct from other members of the species. Anthropology. 1. a geographical variation in the human population, identified by a range of genetic characteristics such as hair and skin color, eye color and shape, facial features, body build, and blood group"

Biology question: If someone with the Jewish gene mates with someone with the Catholic gene, is the offspring Catholic or Jewish? If the offspring ends up being Catholic, will his or her mating with a Muslim lead to a Catholic offspring or a Muslim offspring... or perhaps the dormant Jewish gene will spring forth...? You should be able to answer this question, knowing so much about race.

Oh yeah... that's right... religion is not genetic, while things like skin color are (or "nigger-ness" as you so eloquently put it.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I get very weary of explaining this, but here goes again. There are two ways to become a Jew. One way is to be born of a Jewish mother. An individual born of a Jewish mother is a Jew without regard to what religion he or she does or does not practice. He or she can be baptized Catholic and go to Mass and even become a saint in the Catholic church, and he or she is still a Jew, something the Nazis knew and acted on when they killed Edith Stein to punish the Dutch bishops for their lack of support for the Final Solution. So, yes, Jews form a separate gene pool, or perhaps two separate gene pools (if you consider the Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews far enough apart genetically). That is why Tay-Sachs disease occurs almost exclusively among Ashkenazic Jews, although it does occur very rarely in other population groups (in particular French-Canadians and their cousins, the Louisiana Cajuns). The other way to become a Jew is to convert. The children of a woman who has converted to Judaism will be born Jews. Conversions to Judaism are relatively rare because Judaism is not a triumphalist religion and does not proselytize, but they do occur, bringing new genetic material into the Jewish gene pool. Through the millennia of anti-Jewish oppression, Jewish women were frequently subject to rape, and again any children conceived of the rape of Jewish women would be born Jews, bringing with them into the breeding population the genes of their non-Jewish fathers.

So, yes, there are Jewish genes--but there are no Christian or Muslim genes. Both Christianity and Islam are triumphalist religions which successfully seek converts worldwide, and thus adherents of those religions can be from any human population and can have any genetic profile.

To answer your facetious question, if a Jewish woman mates with a Catholic man, the child will be born a Jew no matter which religion he or she is taught to practice. From the Catholic perspective, that child should be baptized and brought up Catholic, but the child is not born a Catholic. If a Jewish man mates with a Catholic woman, the child is not Jewish unless he or she goes through a conversion process. Now, in very recent years some Reformed rabbis will circumcise and bar mitzvah boys with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother without conversion, but these are the same rabbis who will eat cheeseburgers and drive on the sabbath.

[InchoateHand]

Warik, see LOL's post.

JWNED.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that like the term "nigger-rig" You would never use it in front of a black guy, but if you did he would only be, at the most, minorly irriatated

[/ QUOTE ]

please use it in a sentence and find me a black person who would only be minorly irritated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we please use the politically correct term

"African American Engineer" something

Last time I checked Jewish wasn't a race.

It's sterotypical.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Throughout history the Jewish people have considered their race and religion to be intertwined.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, thanks for clarifying. I guess since the Jewish people "considered" their race and religion to be intertwined that makes the whole "division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type" definition out to be nonsense after all.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go "consider" my bank account to be $10,000,00 and buy myself a "considerably" large house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, my first reaction to your other post (where you inexplicably fixed my post to say something that I had not actually intended) was that you were a bad person with whom I would never agree on anything.

But now I see that I was wrong, and that you are a smart and good person with whom I might well have a propensity toward agreement.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Warik, see LOL's post.

JWNED.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not here to defend anyone's position or champion anyone's cause, but let's be honest--any objective person who reads LOL's post can plainly see that she is positing that the rules as determined by the group in question (i.e. Jews) are definitive in this dialogue, and they are not.

The notion of race is not to be determined by the Talmud, the Torah, the Koran, or Mad Magazine. It is defined by science, which is not to be found in the texts mentioned.

What an odd exchange.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for being confusing. He deserves an insta-ban because that point has been debated pretty thoroughly over the past few pages, yet he flies in and posts a one-line response that clearly indicates he hasn't read any of the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point made. Anyway, I can't explain it any better than LittleOldLady did, and she is probably either distantly related to me, or very similar in countenance to the people with whom I had Thanksgiving dinner.

[LittleOldLady]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Warik, see LOL's post.

JWNED.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not here to defend anyone's position or champion anyone's cause, but let's be honest--any objective person who reads LOL's post can plainly see that she is positing that the rules as determined by the group in question (i.e. Jews) are definitive in this dialogue, and they are not.

The notion of race is not to be determined by the Talmud, the Torah, the Koran, or Mad Magazine. It is defined by science, which is not to be found in the texts mentioned.

What an odd exchange.

[/ QUOTE ]

Race in the sense we have been discussing is a cultural concept, not a biological ('scientific') one. (There are other senses of 'race' which are scientific and are not relevant here.) For example, in the state of Louisiana where I spent most of my adult life, race is determined by law. Anyone who has just 1 of his/her 32 closest ancestors with genetic material deriving from a population originating in sub-Saharan Africa is, by law, black. Period. End of story. People who did not want to be classified as black have challenged this in court and lost--and that in recent years. It is not a thing of the distant past. From a biological point of view this is ridiculous. What does it mean to be black when only one of your 32 forebears is of African descent? It means that in Louisiana there are blonde, blue-eyed 'blacks' and red-haired, green-eyed, freckled 'blacks.' This is clearly a cultural, not a biological, concept.

Now, I would not call Jews a race. You totally missed the point. I was speaking of genetics in response to Warik who was deriding the possibility of a genetic component to Judaism. In fact, because for many millennia Jews have defined themselves as Jews by birth (without regard to whatever religion is eventually espoused) and have been endogamous, Jews form a distinct gene pool (breeding population) as evidenced by the appearance of certain genetic diseases, blood type patterns, and other commonalities of DNA. This would be more analogous to ethnicity, such as being Irish or Italian (which groups have both cultural and genetic ties), than to race. I am quite sure that when it comes to ticking off 'race' boxes all Ashkenazic Jews tick 'white' or Caucasian. I personally have the fairest skin imaginable, almost as fair as an albino, and very light eyes. What else would I check? (pace David Duke)

Jews have genetic ties, cultural ties, and religious ties. Christians and Muslims have only religious ties. Adherents of Christianity and Islam can be of any genetic and cultural background. Religion is their only shared feature.

To go back to the OP, "to jew down" is offensive because it applies a negative stereotype to a (minority) group. The terms 'race' and 'racist' are really irrelevant.

[DoomSlice]

Is saying "Nigga" racist if you're not trying to be offensive to the race, but are instead just using it in conversation?

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Warik, see LOL's post.

JWNED.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not here to defend anyone's position or champion anyone's cause, but let's be honest--any objective person who reads LOL's post can plainly see that she is positing that the rules as determined by the group in question (i.e. Jews) are definitive in this dialogue, and they are not.

The notion of race is not to be determined by the Talmud, the Torah, the Koran, or Mad Magazine. It is defined by science, which is not to be found in the texts mentioned.

What an odd exchange.

[/ QUOTE ]

Race in the sense we have been discussing is a cultural concept, not a biological ('scientific') one. (There are other senses of 'race' which are scientific and are not relevant here.) For example, in the state of Louisiana where I spent most of my adult life, race is determined by law. Anyone who has just 1 of his/her 32 closest ancestors with genetic material deriving from a population originating in sub-Saharan Africa is, by law, black. Period. End of story. People who did not want to be classified as black have challenged this in court and lost--and that in recent years. It is not a thing of the distant past. From a biological point of view this is ridiculous. What does it mean to be black when only one of your 32 forebears is of African descent? It means that in Louisiana there are blonde, blue-eyed 'blacks' and red-haired, green-eyed, freckled 'blacks.' This is clearly a cultural, not a biological, concept.

Now, I would not call Jews a race. You totally missed the point. I was speaking of genetics in response to Warik who was deriding the possibility of a genetic component to Judaism. In fact, because for many millennia Jews have defined themselves as Jews by birth (without regard to whatever religion is eventually espoused) and have been endogamous, Jews form a distinct gene pool (breeding population) as evidenced by the appearance of certain genetic diseases, blood type patterns, and other commonalities of DNA. This would be more analogous to ethnicity, such as being Irish or Italian (which groups have both cultural and genetic ties), than to race. I am quite sure that when it comes to ticking off 'race' boxes all Ashkenazic Jews tick 'white' or Caucasian. I personally have the fairest skin imaginable, almost as fair as an albino, and very light eyes. What else would I check? (pace David Duke)

Jews have genetic ties, cultural ties, and religious ties. Christians and Muslims have only religious ties. Adherents of Christianity and Islam can be of any genetic and cultural background. Religion is their only shared feature.

To go back to the OP, "to jew down" is offensive because it applies a negative stereotype to a (minority) group. The terms 'race' and 'racist' are really irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well stated.

I would, however, like to more directly state what I now realize was my point.

Words like "culture," "race," and "ethnicity," while all mercurial, are not so elusive as to have been reduced to symbols denoting merely what those with an agenda choose to make of them.

When issues of sovereignty, reparations, tax exemption, and demographic are raised, the minority in question cannot be the determining body, for obvious reasons.

[InchoateHand]

I agree, but if there is no consensus amongst the majority (of which there is none on this matter), what else besides self-identification can you turn to?

And in legal matters, in many states, self-identification is all that matters.

[LittleOldLady]

[ QUOTE ]
When issues of sovereignty, reparations, tax exemption, and demographic are raised, the minority in question cannot be the determining body, for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were we talking about issues of sovereignty, reparations, tax exemption, and demographic (whatever you mean by that)? If so, I missed it. I was talking about genetics in response to Warik. Ashkenazic Jews form a distinct gene pool for reasons which I mentioned, and Sephardic Jews form a separate but related gene pool. Yes, there are 'Jewish' genes (like the dreaded Tay-Sachs gene), but there are no Christian or Muslim genes. This is a scientific fact--it is not a matter of a minority self-defining or self-identifying. I looked up the prevalence of Tay-Sachs, and the numbers I found were 1 in 25/30 Ashkenazic Jews is a carrier as opposed to 1 in 280 for Sephardic Jews and non-Jews (the incidence is considerably higher in French Canadians and Cajuns). There are a number of other nasty genetic disorders that occur primarily in Ashkenaizc Jews, and one, familial dysautonomia, that occurs ONLY in Ashkenazic Jews. This is science, not self-definition, or reparations or tax exemptions or whatever. So, there are "Jewish genes"--or at least one might put it that way. There are, of course, no Christian or Muslim genes in any sense. The reason that there are 'Jewish genes' is that the vast majority of Jews are born of Jewish mothers, and with a long history of endogamy, Jews have come to form a separate breeding population with outside genetic material introduced only relatively rarely, at least only rarely until the last couple of generations.

[ripdog]

I don't know if it's racist--are Jews a race? It's definitely an ugly thing to say. I only say things like that when I want to shock my wife--always makes her jaw drop. Gotta pronounce it Joo though.

[bad beetz]

My barber said it and then hesitated to make sure I wasn't Jewish, which I appear to be (I even infiltrated a Jewish Fraternity and remained there for four years).....

My barber is [censored] old school.. It didn't mean anything to him, no more than saying, "I tried to get it for a lesser price." It's amazing how different his and my generation are in what they are taught.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted not racist because "Jew" is not a race!!!

Wow... it's a shame so many seemingly intelligent people have trouble using a dictionary.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is certainly nitpickery. Many Jews share a genetic heritage, as well as a religious one. While I would hesitate to call Jews a "race," I think Chesspain's intent was to aske whether people would find this sort of comment offensive, inappropriate, or indicative of prejudice.

[Bulbarainey]

i just think it has become such a regular part of our language... even some jews I know use it in that way. Racist or not, you say someone "tried to jew me" and they know exactly what you mean in a sentence instead of a paragraph.

[ QUOTE ]
i just think it has become such a regular part of our language... even some jews I know use it in that way. Racist or not, you say someone "tried to jew me" and they know exactly what you mean in a sentence instead of a paragraph.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horrible insight…

[Bulbarainey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i just think it has become such a regular part of our language... even some jews I know use it in that way. Racist or not, you say someone "tried to jew me" and they know exactly what you mean in a sentence instead of a paragraph.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horrible insight…

[/ QUOTE ]
yes... yes it is...

[wacki]

I can't believe it's 70/30. WTF.

Well I guess all my jewish friends are racist jew hating scumbags.

Lame.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When issues of sovereignty, reparations, tax exemption, and demographic are raised, the minority in question cannot be the determining body, for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were we talking about issues of sovereignty, reparations, tax exemption, and demographic (whatever you mean by that)? If so, I missed it. I was talking about genetics in response to Warik. Ashkenazic Jews form a distinct gene pool for reasons which I mentioned, and Sephardic Jews form a separate but related gene pool. Yes, there are 'Jewish' genes (like the dreaded Tay-Sachs gene), but there are no Christian or Muslim genes. This is a scientific fact--it is not a matter of a minority self-defining or self-identifying. I looked up the prevalence of Tay-Sachs, and the numbers I found were 1 in 25/30 Ashkenazic Jews is a carrier as opposed to 1 in 280 for Sephardic Jews and non-Jews (the incidence is considerably higher in French Canadians and Cajuns). There are a number of other nasty genetic disorders that occur primarily in Ashkenaizc Jews, and one, familial dysautonomia, that occurs ONLY in Ashkenazic Jews. This is science, not self-definition, or reparations or tax exemptions or whatever. So, there are "Jewish genes"--or at least one might put it that way. There are, of course, no Christian or Muslim genes in any sense. The reason that there are 'Jewish genes' is that the vast majority of Jews are born of Jewish mothers, and with a long history of endogamy, Jews have come to form a separate breeding population with outside genetic material introduced only relatively rarely, at least only rarely until the last couple of generations.

[/ QUOTE ]

By "demographic," I meant to say in instances where it is in the interest of the group to identify itself with the group (i.e. Affirmative Action, claims to Zion, etc.).

As for the rest, I understand that the points that you make are valid--don't get me wrong.

It's just that when I see folks saying that some arbitrary distinction (i.e. conversion, etc.), I want to at least try to rebut it, because it's inane.

[LittleOldLady]

[ QUOTE ]



By "demographic," I meant to say in instances where it is in the interest of the group to identify itself with the group (i.e. Affirmative Action, claims to Zion, etc.).

As for the rest, I understand that the points that you make are valid--don't get me wrong.

It's just that when I see folks saying that some arbitrary distinction (i.e. conversion, etc.), I want to at least try to rebut it, because it's inane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this so hard? There are no affirmative action benefits to being a Jew, and there never have been. Quite the contrary. If you are talking about German reparations, those are claims for stolen property and wrongful death made by those whose property was stolen and the immediate heirs of the dead and despoiled, no different from the return of stolen property and wrongful death suits here in the United States. If you mean the foundation of the State of Israel and the right of return that all Jews have to Israeli citizenship, well, Israel is a sovereign nation formed, like many others, in the post-colonial period and as a sovereign nation has the right to grant citizenship according to its own rules. The US, for example, decides who can enter the country legally, reside and work here, and eventually gain citizenship. Conversion to Judaism is (a) no different than conversion to any other religion (the Catholics decide who gets to be Catholic by what process) and (b) analogous to naturalization, and again sovereign nations decide whom to naturalize and by what process. Nor is Israel unique in its foundation along religious lines during the post-WWII dismantling of empires. (See Pakistan and India, both of which are sovereign nations divided along religious lines which control their own borders and citizenship--and which are as much at each other's throats with the possibility of nuclear war as Israel and her Arab neighbors. Ditto the foundation of the Republic of Ireland and its relationship with Northern Ireland.)

Perhaps it is helpful to consider Jews as a tribe. As members of a tribe, Jews have shared DNA, culture (including language), history, and religion. I have a colleague who is one of the outstanding literary figures of Africa, perhaps the outstanding living African poet. He is Yoruba. He speaks Yoruba. He is related by blood to the other members of the Yoruba people. He participates in Yoruba culture and has been formed by Yoruba history. His very surname is derived from the name of one of the Yoruba gods, the water deity. His mother told him that his fate would be bound up with water--and recently he swam for his life through roof-high waters, losing the texts of 300 poems, representing a significant portion of his life's work. In addition to being Yoruba, he is a citizen of Nigeria, a native speaker of English, a legal resident of the US, and (I think) a practicing Christian. His situation is very similar to the situation of being a Jew. And it is up to the Yoruba to decide who is and isn't a member of the tribe.

There is never any benefit to be derived by identifying as a Jew. Being a Jew is a burden, and all too often a life-threatening burden. That is why Jews do not seek converts. There is no spiritual benefit to being a Jew: at the very least the Jew is burdened by adherence to the Law which others are not. This is why the rabbi is required to discourage a potential convert three times (Are you really sure you want to do this?) before proceeding through the conversion process. Despite the fact that being a Jew is all burden and no benefit, occasionally someone wishes to become Jewish, and that is provided for according to Jewish law and custom.

So, do you think that naturalization as an American citizen or conversion to Catholicism or being a Yoruba is inane? If not, why apply the term to Jews?

What I am seeing in this thread is the acceptance of an anti-Semitic stereotype that is so ingrained that people use it casually without even acknowledging or understanding that it is a stereotype. Reminds me of my mother-in-law who didn't much like African-Americans (true of many of her generation-she would have turned 100 this year). In her final year of employment--she was well into her 70s when she retired--she got herself into a brou-haha when she called a young African-American male co-worker a "boy." She had no clue that this was offensive, and she didn't understand why it was offensive even when it was explained to her. Her view of the "lesser" stature of African-Americans was so much second nature that she couldn't see it even though it was pointed out to her.

[Lottery Larry]

How did 31% not see this as racist? Regardless of the fact that it is out of direct religious/ethnic context, it's still pretty obvious.

[andyfox]

I've never heard a Jew use the phrase. We're all offended by it because it's offensive.

Maybe it's a generational thing?

[LittleOldLady]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never heard a Jew use the phrase. We're all offended by it because it's offensive.

Maybe it's a generational thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy--

Do you mean that maybe young Jews think it's OK (I think it's unlikely), or that young non-Jews think it's OK, because it's just a phrase and they don't intend to be offensive--the same excuse I have heard from the young for their casual use of words like "retarded" and "gay"--as in "That's so retarded" or "He's so gay" (applied universally without regard to actual intellectual capability or sexual orientation). (I should add that I have heard from the not-so-young words like the n-word and other direct slurs without any defense or apology.)

I got into this issue on another forum where the question arose as to those Christians who are opposed to Wal-Mart cashiers saying happy holidays (rather than Merry Christmas) as a matter of company policy. The prevailing opinion was that all those who do not celebrate Christmas (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, wiccans and other pagans, atheists, agnostics, and Scrooges) should just suck it up because no offense is intended and that 'happy holidays' is just too watered-down (and, heaven forfend, inclusive). I don't understand this point of view for a number of reasons. First of all, I don't want any insincere company-ordered wishes for a nice day or happy holidays or any such, except thanks for my custom (which had better be sincere because the cashier's job depends on custom). Second of all, things are offensive if someone is offended, the offender's intent being immaterial (Peter Abelard and his theology of intent have a lot to answer for). Third of all, stores start seasonal marketing right after Halloween, and in fact 'happy holidays' refers to Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's (multiple holidays even for the most Christian of Christians), not to mention other winter solstice holidays (Hanukah, Kwanzaa, and whatever else other groups celebrate). So, what's the big deal about referring to the multiplicity of holidays celebrated by almost everyone in one way or another at this time of year? Anyway I had had enough when one woman told me that if I didn't want to be wished Merry Christmas, I should wear dreidel earrings. This woman was completely oblivious to the millennium-long custom of forcing Jews to identify themselves by means of some distinctive clothing item and had no clue how offensive that earring remark was even after I explained it to her. Nonetheless, I did buy myself a pair of dreidel earrings, and they are adorable.

The point is that an offensive remark is an offensive remark if someone is offended by it without regard as to whether offense was intended. The correct response is to apologize, say that one did not realize it was offensive and did not mean to offend, and refrain from making that same remark in future.

Im sorry, but the statement that racism is gone is completely false. I do however think there is some weird quasi-anti-racist movement, such as the favt Im not allowed to call my black friends that I've known for 20 years black, I have to call them african-american.

You know who pushes that? Rich Americans who have maybe met one black guy in their life, or those idiotic super rich black folk who try to make every single issue racist.

Look, in my mind, the term black is similar to the term tan. It is a descriptor. He is a black colored person, I am a tan colored person, he has black hair, I have brown hair, just get the [censored] over it.

Now the racism in America is all based on the crime stereotype. Ask your parent for instance why you shouldn't move to the bronx, or the 3rd ward in houston, and there's a chance they'll make some face, and quietly say something along the lines of "its a dark neighborhood" or, "there's mixed ethnicities there". Its amazing how comfortable people get with statements like that when there is no one around of the ethnicities they are referring to.

No I dont say nigga, nigger, blackie, tarbaby, or any of those. Why? Not because Im PC, but just because I dont think using that word makes me any cooler, and if it also could offend anyone, why use it? Its called maturity, its why I try not to cuss around a priest.

BTW, this is also why people finally realized that Chris Rock wasnt all that funny, after they got over the shock of him saying nigga all the time.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
So, do you think that naturalization as an American citizen or conversion to Catholicism or being a Yoruba is inane? If not, why apply the term to Jews?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I see that you are not even remotely objective on this topic.

Conversion to a religion and specification of race are utterly and absolutely different things which require no further conversation.

You seem to have done an awful lot of research on this topic, and seem to feel very strongly about your knowledge on the subject.

I hope that your inference that my "inability to undersatand" your points is "anti-semitic" is merely a product of your truly sincere beliefs on this topic.

Otherwise, I can only assume that your clearly disingenuous incredulity at my point that converting to a religion and specifying oneself as belonging to a race are utterly different things is the product of some form of insanity.

And I do not wish insanity upon anyone, even those with whom I disagree.

[InchoateHand]

Rushmore, what part of social constructionism don't you get?

Races are materially "real," how can they be anything more (or less) than a reflection of socially sanctioned knowledges? Including, god-forbid, self-identification or conversion?

The fact that you think Warik is "on point," shows how utterly clueless you are on this subject. That doesn't make you unique, but it does make you a moron.

[RiverTheNuts]

Off topic... but I was pissed because my dad played the verb jew last time we played scrabble... I told him it is vulgar and politically incorrect, not to mention a proper noun.

He pulled out his 1970's era [censored] scrabble dictionary and sho' nuff its in there... of course its not currently accepted, but seeing as that dictionary is god when it comes to scrabble, I had to abide

[LittleOldLady]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, do you think that naturalization as an American citizen or conversion to Catholicism or being a Yoruba is inane? If not, why apply the term to Jews?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I see that you are not even remotely objective on this topic.

Conversion to a religion and specification of race are utterly and absolutely different things which require no further conversation.

You seem to have done an awful lot of research on this topic, and seem to feel very strongly about your knowledge on the subject.

I hope that your inference that my "inability to undersatand" your points is "anti-semitic" is merely a product of your truly sincere beliefs on this topic.

Otherwise, I can only assume that your clearly disingenuous incredulity at my point that converting to a religion and specifying oneself as belonging to a race are utterly different things is the product of some form of insanity.

And I do not wish insanity upon anyone, even those with whom I disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said anything about insanity or wishing it on any one? I was quoting your use of the word inane. And now you claim that I am insane for disingenuously arguing something I never argued.

I have never said that Jews represent a 'race'. In fact, I said entirely the opposite. I myself check 'white' when I have to indicate race. There is no box to tick for Jew, nor should there be. I did say that Jews constitute a gene pool, a breeding population (actually two gene pools), and that is a scientific fact. In fact, 'race' is a cultural concept, not a biological or genetic concept, and since I have been talking about genetics, the term 'race'is irrelevant.

If you are going to argue with me, kindly read what I wrote and do not put ridiculous things into my mouth.

Because Jews are endogamous and matrilineal, when a woman converts to Judaism, her children are Jews (no matter who their father is), and traditionally those Jewish children would marry other Jews and produce Jewish children. That is how conversion intersects with genetics, the children of converts introducing new genetic material into the Jewish gene pool.

If we do talk about race (and for the umpteenth time, no matter how you define it, Jews are NOT a race), new genetic material is introduced into "races" by intermarriage/interreproduction, producing individuals like Tiger Woods whose forebears include Asians, Native Americans, Africans, and Europeans. It is, as he has pointed out, ridiculous to pigeonhole him into the black 'race', ignoring all of the rest of his genetic heritage. This is one of many reasons why race as a cultural concept is not a very useful one.

In traditonal Judaism (that is before the most recent assimilating generations), intermarriage was generally preceded by conversion, especially when the non-Jewish partner was female, so that the children would be considered Jewish and would then marry endogamously as the overwhelming majority of Jews did until recently. In the case of pregnancies caused by the rape of a Jewish woman by a non-Jewish man, there would of course not be a conversion, but the children would be Jews and would in almost all cases marry another Jew. In the case of a Jewish woman marrying a non-Jewish man, there was little pressure from the wife's family for conversion, since the children would in any case be Jewish.

You are the one inferring that I have implied that you are anti-Semitic. I have implied no such thing. You have constructed a strawman when you argued that converting to a religion and specifying a race are utterly different things--when I at least never said that they were the same thing at all.

Once and for all, Jews are a "tribe" (to use the best-fitting term I can think of) linked together by genetics, history, culture (including language), and religion. It is, however, not necessary to believe in God or to practice the religious rituals to be a Jew, since membership in the "tribe" is conferred by the mere fact of birth to a Jewish woman. It is possible to be "adopted" by the "tribe," and that is done through conversion which is a religious process and does imply willingness to practice the Jewish religion, something that is not required of those who are Jews by birth. This can be compared to the naturalization process by which people become US citizens. Candidates for naturalization have to pass certain tests about American history and government before they are naturalized, while native-born US citizens can be complete ignoramuses--and often are. Jews as a group--like any other group--decide who is a member and who is not.

I am not insane, and I do know what I am talking about, and you might want to brush up on your reading and writing skills.

[andyfox]

"Do you mean that maybe young Jews think it's OK (I think it's unlikely), or that young non-Jews think it's OK, because it's just a phrase and they don't intend to be offensive"

Maybe both. I'm not sure, though, that they don't intend it to be offensive. I think it may be part of the coarsening of language in general, where ugly words or phrases are not considered as such, especially by younger people.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Rushmore, what part of social constructionism don't you get?

Races are materially "real," how can they be anything more (or less) than a reflection of socially sanctioned knowledges? Including, god-forbid, self-identification or conversion?

The fact that you think Warik is "on point," shows how utterly clueless you are on this subject. That doesn't make you unique, but it does make you a moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a first.

Ok, I never said that Warik was "on point." I merely responded when the kneejerk response to his position was seemingly without any merit whatsoever.

I can see how passionate you are on the subject, though, and have learned through the years that an objective discussion with a very passionate person is generally not readily available.

I will close my end of the discussion, though, by pointing out that it IS disingenuous for those with an agenda to feign incredulity at what is clearly a valid point (i.e. that scientific designation cannot ever be left to clearly subjective criterion).

That is all.

Moron, signing off.

[DoomSlice]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jew
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism

If you're not discriminating against Jewish people when you use it, how is it racism?