Hand to Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

Here's a hand I played earlier this evening in a very loose $30-$60 game.

Five people limped in and I called (for one $10 chip) out of the small blind with Q/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifT/forums/images/icons/heart.gif.

So six of us, including the big blind took the flop which was A/forums/images/icons/spade.gifJ/forums/images/icons/club.gifT/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. Everyone checked.

The turn was the K/forums/images/icons/heart.gif. Everyone checked.

The river was the 8/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. I bet, and one player who held the 9/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif7/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif (for a smaller straight) called.

All comments welcome.

Best wishes,
Mason

[MrHeadsUp]

[Ginogino]

Mason:
Your preflop and flop bets are straightforward, I think. On the flop you have to believe that someone has caught a piece of something better than your 10's, but why not draw if you can draw cheaply (and how much cheaper could it be).

When you hit the straight on the turn you check because you almost have to give your opponents a free card. When the flop is checked through, it's apparent that no one has anything (unless one or more of them is really tricky), and this would be a wonderful situation in which to bluff. But you actually hold the nuts, darn it!

The free card paid off, and that's just why you gave it. Neat idea. I don't know whether I'd always see it at the table.

Gino

[RydenStoompala]

The rainbow flop would have made me bet the turn. Low pair on the flop means checking through it on a straight draw was a good play. Nice to have six in for that flop.

[pilchard]

Preflop
Clear call

On the flop
I think leading into that size of field with bottom pair is out of the question so I would check too.

On the turn
Rainbow board, six of you in this tiny pot (3 Big bets)
I would always check here. Unless the other players at the table are complete idiots they would have to be mad to call a turn bet without a Q. Regardless of the fact that you probably have a tight image anyway, who would lead into 5 other players without a Q in such a tiny pot. Furthermore, if you do lead someone with a Q behind you might raise (idiotic but possible) but even calling would clear the rest of the field.

So the reasons for checking the turn is a) you may induce a bluff from a late position player on the turn and b) you may induce a call on the river from a player who doubts your Q.

What of the dangers of giving a free card. No flush draw, preflop and flop betting makes it highly unlikely anyone has two pair or a set, the only risk is that a Q comes on the river.

On the river you have to bet and hope someone calls. Not worth checking and hoping to induce a bluff.

I think you maximised your profit on the hand.

[skp]

Preflop and flop are fine.

The turn is situation dependant: If you have been betting a lot in the game already, you should bet. If you haven't made a move in quite a while, you should check.

One thing to note here is that if someone has two pairs, that someone is likely in early position. I say this because a late position player with one pair on the flop would likely have bet. The early position player with middle or bottom pair may well have checked the flop (as you did).

So, on the turn, if the two pair holder is in early position, he too might check (now fearing the queen). On the other hand, if you bet, he might well call. Again, depending on your image, he may well call on the turn with a view to also calling you on the river.

Having said all of that, the turn decision depends a lot on current image considerations, whether or not there are players in the game who will call with two pairs (even though the pot is so small), whether someone will be tempted to bluff if you slip it etc.

[mike l.]

i think you shouldve checked the river because acting first with that many players someone is sure to take a stab often enough (and who knows, someone may make a counter-stab before it gets back to you) on the end, and youre sure to get a checkraise in often enough to make that more profitable then betting the river. it's really not close so im surprised you bet the river.

other than that, well played.

[skp]

I beg to differ on the river. Having checked the turn, I say that it is way better to bet the river. You are going to get crying calls way more often than induced bluffs or thin value bets (by checking). Notice that this board is 2 pair friendly. That 2 pair hand may be afraid to step out but will generally call a river bet particularly because no one bet the turn.

If Mason had bet the turn and been called (I will call that scenario 2), then checking the river might have more appeal but even then Mason's opponent would have to be of the fairly aggressive type who likes to value bet when checked to on the river. The reason why the guy with two pairs is more likely to bet scenario 2 (as opposed to scenario 1 where no one bets the turn) is that he knows that his call on the turn may be taken by Mason as a sign that he smoothcalled with the nuts on the turn. In scenario 1, the guy with 2 pairs will be less likely to bet out (with something like KT) because he knows that his opponents are specifically not putting him on a straight.

Bah...that's expressed unclearly but the hell with it...I am too lazy to reformulate what I am trying to say.

[mike l.]

"Notice that this board is 2 pair friendly. That 2 pair hand may be afraid to step out but will generally call a river bet particularly because no one bet the turn."

30-60 most players bet 2 pair on the end on this board when no one bets that straight board. they just dont check it down here, no chance. they probably call a checkraise as well, although against mason they may not. they definitely dont raise mason with two pair when he comes out betting the river though.

[Diplomat]

I agree with mike here. I think any decently agressive player would bet two pair after being checked to twice in middle or late position; someone might even bet a lone ace, especially if the game is a bit agressive.

I think the questions to ask are how agressive your opponents are; how likely they are to bluff; and how likely they are to call a checkraise. As usual, I don't really have answers, just questions. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

-Diplomat

[skp]

But the guy who has two pair will have likely flopped a pair and a gutshot on the flop. With that hand, a late position player would bet on the flop.

Therefore, if there is a guy with two pairs on the river, I reckon that chap is in early position and he will be less likely to bet the river (i.e. he may be cautious, he may want to induce a bluff himself from late position players etc.).

So, in this spot, it may be tough to get an early position player to bet two pairs and it may be tough to find a late position player that has two pairs.

On the other hand, if Mason bets the river, the guy with two pairs in early position will probably still make a crying call.

[Ed S.]

I think when King comes off you might induce a bet from someone with kings up in late position if this was your thought process since the game was loose. Or even a bluff for that matter. Thats why you checked it on the turn. No one took the bait and it checked around again for the second time. The river came and it brought an 8 diamond. You had to bet out here. No one made a call here except for that 9-7d hand which made the smaller str8. I think you actually got an extra bet in from your opponent in the pot here this way. You would have lost a bet here if you bet the turn and you lose everyone. So by doing this you actually try to get someone to bet for you on the turn and let people draw cheap to complete a lessar hand.


Ed S.

[mike l.]

"But the guy who has two pair will have likely flopped a pair and a gutshot on the flop. With that hand, a late position player would bet on the flop.'

youre forgetting that mason described the game as very loose. so all sorts of hands could be out there. for instance in this case someone had 97 at the end for a smaller straight.

"So, in this spot, it may be tough to get an early position player to bet two pairs and it may be tough to find a late position player that has two pairs."

but there are usually other hands players will bet and even raise with on the end including complete bluffs.

[baseball38]

Just curious as to why you checked the turn. Were you just looking to check raise someone???

baseball38 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[CreamPuff]

Havent read any other replies,
but Im gonna say your logic on the turn was:

Game is loose...I would bet if I thought someone
had 2 pair...But since someone would have likely
bet 1 pair in this loose game, no reason to think
anyone could have made 2 pair.
Plus pot is small in relation to # of players in pot.
No flush draw.
Could induce a bluff (But Ill point you didnt say aggressive)
Check.........
Got lucky on river.

My logic based on your description:
5 loose players limped.
It's possible 1 or 2 players could've checked a hand like
KT in early position.
I'll bet and hope I get 1 or 2 callers..
There are around 7 Sb's in pot..No 3 outers for
a 7 way split.
I could get a crying call on the river.


***Note:
The key I think is in your description of the word "loose".
There are some games where players just play loose
preflop (and ok postflop). This may be the case
in a game like $30-$60 Vegas...So I like your play.

Then there is the California loosiness (is that a word?)
..seen preflop and postflop. In this game I say bet.

[NickS]

TURN: You are not going to announce you have the nuts by lead betting into a field of 5 opponets. So your check is correct. Since you describe this as a "very loose game" I assume you anticipated a bet after your check. If it comes back to you with no other callers I would have check raised. With other callers I would have quietly called.

RIVER: You made the only move you could have.

SUMMARY: Probably disappointed you were only able to extract one more bet after drawing the nuts.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi MRHeadsUp:

I agree with what you say. However, the downside is that you bet and another player with a queen raises and now the loose player can't play. By checking, you might catch the loose player for two bets.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Gino:

You wrote:

The free card paid off, and that's just why you gave it.

This is partly why I posted this hand. Yes the free card paid off, and the results make it appear that it was the proper play. But are we geeting results oriented?

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi RydenStoompala:

You wrote:

The rainbow flop would have made me bet the turn.

Aren't all different suits a reason not to bet since there is no flush draw to get a call from?

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi pilchard:

That's pretty much the way I saw it. However, as you point out very live players are certainly capable of calling with less than a queen. However, very live players are also more capable of being in there with absolutely nothing.

Best wishes,
Mason

[VeryTnA]

With your super tight image, a bet on the turn would ended the hand and cost you EV. I think you played the hand perfectly based the info you gave. It must have been a tough game for the button (or late player) not to represent KQ and fire a shot on the flop. Would you have then called?

[Mark Heide]

Mason,

Since five players limped in you can not bet because it is likely that someone has something that fits better into that board, so the check is correct, giving you the chance to make a better hand and gauging the strength of your opponents hands, plus giving someone the chance to make a second best hand.

On the turn, you can't bet because if someone has the other queen, they may want to raise, possibly knocking out second best hands. If someone did have a queen, it would be better for them to bet and hopefully others will call making the pot larger.

Betting on the river is correct since no one bet the turn. It's obvious, that the hands are pretty weak. Otherwise, no one may bet at all.

Good Luck

Mark

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi SKP:

If you haven't made a move in quite a while, you should check.

What if you're against players who are simply unaware. That was basically the case here.

I also disagree that image plays much of a roll here. It's a scary board and they will tend to call you based on the value of their hand.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mike:

In Sklansky on Poker there is a chapter about the protected pot. This is a concept that comes into play on the last round of betting in a many handed pot. So even though there has been no bet on the flop or fourth street, it makes it less likely that someone will bluff.

Best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mike:

30-60 most players bet 2 pair on the end on this board when no one bets that straight board.

There's a big difference between botom two and top two.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

SKP has a good point here. One error that many players do make is that they don't take into account the number of players still to act behind them. However, in this spot, most players will be aware of this idea.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Ed:

While what you say was certainly true in this case, are we being too results dependent?

Best wishes,
Mason

[Ed S.]

Hello Mason,

I think you expected someone to bet since this was a good and loose enough game from your perspective. That's why you did what you did. So when no one bets it on the turn you have to ask yourself did you lose action on the turn or would they have all folded. Now if your answer is that you are pretty sure you would have had 1 or 2 call your turn bet then a turn bet was in order. But from how you describe it and by your take of the game you took the "chance" that someone would bet it and you would check-raise it. That didn't happen. So You have to figure everyone is still way behind or someone is traping. So anyways no one went for the bet with the king hitting. So you've might have lost some bets if you stil thought you might get callers if you went and bet anyways on the Turn. On the flipside of it all is that even though that they all checked it, it can still give people a cheap look at the river. You see what you did was a "situational" move. You took the situation at hand and deduced that you could maximize your profits if someone bet it for you and you re-raise it. But that didn't happen and you lost some bets on the turn because in this good game you described you would have most likely had people call your turn bet anyways. But your little situational move didn't work. Ok no big deal. River is a non-threating card and you have to bet it here. Everyone else folds and you pick up a bet from the person that made the lower end of the straight. So the turn didn't bring the action you hoped for, but it is not a total disaster, you still pick up a bet on the river.

But after the turn I'm guessing you wished you had bet it? You took your risk based on your perspective of the game but it didn't particularly pan out the way you wanted it?


Ed S.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi baseball:

The reason to check the turn has more to do with not wanting to be raised by an early position player than looking to checkraise someone. Notice that if I'm raised, it can knock a possible caller out who now won't call two bets.

Best wishes,
Mason