Pushing Jacks Preflop

[ajmargarine]

.50/$1 NLHE 6-handed

UTG ($95)
Hero ($105)
CO ($150)
BB ($12)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, Hero raises to $4.50, CO calls $4.50, 2 folds, BB pushes all in for $12 total, UTG calls $11, Hero pushes all-in for $105.

Standard or overboard (or you can't play post-flop so probably a good move for you, aj)?

[beset7]

i'd just call and take a flop or raise the pot. UTG has a whole stack that would like nice over on your side of the table.

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard or overboard (or you can't play post-flop so probably a good move for you, aj)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not standard for me. I guess you must have some reads to make this play?
Care to comment on your reasons for making this move?

[EMcWilliams]

I also probably just call and take a flop, or wouldnt push, but would place in a healthy raise.

[Malachii]

Nice. I like it.

[orange]

I like it. Nice isolation play. Are you doing the same with AK?

[ajmargarine]

Hmmm. I almost didn't post this because I thought my push was pretty standard. But, the first 3 responders disagree, so here's the reasoning:

--there's $33 in the middle right now. That's 1/3 of a buy-in so I would be happy to have that. And I have a chance to get it by effectively putting only $7.50 more in the middle and play it HU agst the shortstack. That's good odds.

--Both CO and UTG have shown the strength of their hands, UTG twice. Doubtful either has QQ-AA, so I am ahead of both of them. (And if either held QQ, they might lay it down to my push)

--If I just call, CO is priced in to call as well. Now we are playing a 4-way set main pot. And we are playing 3-way for a sidepot which has $0 in it at the moment.

Any Q, K, A on the flop and it's very tricky for me to play sandwiched between two players. If it's all undercards, I'm probably getting it all in the middle, but only someone who flopped a set (pp=likely UTG hand) is going to go all the way with me more often than not, and then I get stacked. So really, only if I flop a set will I be happy if I just call.

--If I raise, any reasonable raise (PSR) from me commits me to the pot anyway (and whoever calls me, as well) as it will be around half my stack. So I chose to get it all in the middle.

Thoughts?

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it. Nice isolation play. Are you doing the same with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I PFR'd, so I'd probably do this with whatever hand I had there. Including the bottom of the barrel AT/KQ type hands. Think of the metagame implications. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

UTG and CO have shown their strength. Which isn't much. I've shown my strength, which is huuuuge. They should fold most everything they were just calling with initially.

[ryanghall]

I like to do this w/ JJ/QQ type hands. Push it.

Ryan

[zaphod]

I like your reasoning.

[beset7]

you've sold me.

[Mercman572]

I like it, UTG has garbage and you're likely the better end of a coinflip to CO at least.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
(And if either held QQ, they might lay it down to my push)


[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with everything except this, if they've botched QQ this badly so far they aren't likely to fold it to a push (unless shorty has been pushing frequently and CO is sophisticated enough to ralize he'll reopen the betting, but you've said nothing to indicate this and it's a rare player that would do this).

[amoeba]

I like seeing a flop here.

with AK I push.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
I like seeing a flop here.

with AK I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

BC of set possibilities with JJ?

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like seeing a flop here.

with AK I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

BC of set possibilities with JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.

and the fact that AK needs to see all 5 cards.

also often I pull the smoothcall of an shortstack all in after a preflopraise with a monster hoping for an isolation reraise.

[DoomSlice]

Let's do a little bit of math!

Disclaimer: making these numbers up as I go, but I think they'll be close.

For simplicity I'll say if you call you'll have exactly $100 left and everyone else has you covered.

Let's say that you'll hit your set and stack someone off exactly 10% of the time (this might be a bit high). You'll win the $30 in the pot and $100 more, for an expectation of around $13. Now about 25% of the time you'll win the pot when no one hits anything and you win unimproved (you need to dodge the flop for 2 people and the turn/river for the AI guy). So you'll win $30 25% of the time for $7.5. Add that to the original $13, and calling now has an expectation of around $25.

As for moving all in, you're probably a 70/30 favorite over his range of hands, so you'll win $21 and lose about $2.25 (the additional 7.5 at stack x .3). For a total expectation of around $19.

So with this crude math, it looks like calling would be better.

HOWEVER. If you change the numbers slightly (the 10% chance of hitting set and stacking one of the two and the chance of winning unimproved) it becomes much more close and possibly even better to push.

[ajmargarine]

Doesn't 13 + 7.50 = 20.50?

Plus, you need to factor in the times my all-in is called, maybe 10-15% of the time?? And put me as a 60-40 favorite for the sidepot (and that's maybe a conservative estimate. 57-43 agst overs. 80-20 agst smaller pp's)

[DoomSlice]

Like I said, all of my numbers are made up (although that math error is inexcusable). My personal choice would be to push, not only because I think my number for stacking one of the two guys is too high, but also because I would want to avoid making a costly mistake on a one-overcard board where I might be tempted to continue with the hand.

[DJ Sensei]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it, UTG has garbage and you're likely the better end of a coinflip to CO at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

A thought (which may or may not affect decision making for OP): Suppose UTG has AA or KK and is planning a limp-reraise.
After OP's raise, a call by CO, then a push for 3x more, does UTG:

-reraise again (likely shutting out anybody else in the hand and taking down a medium pot with great equity, or a big pot if OP or CO makes a bad call with a worse hand like JJ)
-or does he just call, hoping that OP will re-push, and he can possibly take down a very big pot, either allin preflop against 2 worse hands, or after the flop if it comes down rags (and will likely still win the medium pot if OP doesnt reraise, although might lose a big pot if somebody makes a set)

Obviously, the latter route would require UTG to be a rather thinking player, and have a read that OP was aggressive enough to re-push with hands like JJ/QQ/AK.

Not intending to hijack the thread, but just a thought... If I happen upon such a situation as UTG in my tables, I might just take the latter route and see how it pans out.

[jzpiano14]

[ QUOTE ]
I also probably just call and take a flop, or wouldnt push, but would place in a healthy raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which leaves u pretty much pot comitted....why put urself in the position to make a mistake post flop

There is a concept that has been discussed in this thread that I have a bit of trouble understanding.

It is that one of the reasons to push is that you dont want to make a mistake if an overcard comes on the flop. Is this reasonable because you expect AQ type hands to fold? Do you think any of the villains in this hand hold AQ and will fold? Will they call holding AK?

I would just like this line of reasoning explained. Thanks.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
It is that one of the reasons to push is that you dont want to make a mistake if an overcard comes on the flop. Is this reasonable because you expect AQ type hands to fold? Do you think any of the villains in this hand hold AQ and will fold? Will they call holding AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea is that if the flop comes, say, K95 you're in a bad spot. You're (potentially) out of position, in a fairly big pot, and you don't know if you have the best hand.

If you check, you risk letting your opponent take the pot away from you by betting a worse hand. If you check and your opponent holds TT, well, that flop looks pretty good to your opponent - he will bet it.

If you bet, you risk running into a king.

By pushing preflop, you remove any chance of being outplayed or misplaying your hand postflop. You don't have to worry about falling into these tricky situations.

You don't have to worry about dealing with tricky flop, turn and river decisions - but only because you have put your entire stack on the line.

I guess I am mainly thinking about a confrontation with AK. I assume AQ or worse folds to the push. In this situation I think the preflop action may mean that you are up against lesser pocket pairs in which case the push is good.

I guess I just want to understand when to push Jacks because it isnt something that I would have considered doing before. (I play 25 and 50NL full ring though)

[scrapperdog]

You have position. If you push and get called pre flop you are beat. I dont mind seeing a flop here in position. Take a flop and see what the other guy does before you put your stack in would be my play. Pushing all in because you dont want to make any decisions is not a good reason IMO.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
also often I pull the smoothcall of an shortstack all in after a preflopraise with a monster hoping for an isolation reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I like to give it a shot too, it's a sweet play. That's why I'll be happy not to see you on my tables any time soon /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
-or does he just call, hoping that OP will re-push, and he can possibly take down a very big pot, either allin preflop against 2 worse hands, or after the flop if it comes down rags

Obviously, the latter route would require UTG to be a rather thinking player, and have a read that OP was aggressive enough to re-push with hands like JJ/QQ/AK.



[/ QUOTE ]

If UTG was a thinking player I don't think he'll pass up a a limpraise here, OP made a standard raise, nothing to suggest a huge pocket pair, and he got the reraise and multiway action he would want with AA

[soah]

This is totally standard. Pot big. Hand vulnerable.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I am mainly thinking about a confrontation with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take JJ over AK all day and all nite. We are favored there you know. Plus, with all the action, it it likely that if someone held AK another player held Ax making our edge even larger.

[ QUOTE ]
You have position. If you push and get called pre flop you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, we don't have position. If we call the shortstack push preflop, and CO calls, he has position on us. And, given the preflop action in the hand, it's doubtful that CO or UTG has one of the three hands that are better than us, QQ/KK/AA.

[ QUOTE ]
This is totally standard. Pot big. Hand vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Thanks for a nice thread guys. Some good comments.

[sawseech]

i like it
the beauty of jacks is that they proportionally ream AK/AQ
plus utg ain't calling
everyone and their momma knows he ain't calling

[djoyce003]

i push here exactly 100% of the time. Nicely done.

[ajmargarine]

I suppose I could give results. Both CO and UTG folded. And my JJ held up against shorty's A9.

This is the kind of play I would make in an SNG. However, I just don't have the balls to risk my stack on JJ in a ring game.

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of play I would make in an SNG. However, I just don't have the balls to risk my stack on JJ in a ring game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Play lower.

Play at a stakes where you *can* play optimal poker.