Showdown Raise

[Scotch78]

Pacific $2/$4

All three MPs limp and I raise on the button with JTs. Flop comes 9-high with two spades (I have clubs) and the four of us check it around. Turn card is Js and MP2 bets. I raise intending to fold if it costs anything more to see the showdown.

Scott

[belloc]

You have the button here. If you're so anxious to see a cheap showdown, why are you not betting the flop with two overcards?

[W. Deranged]

1. Pre-flop is sweet.

2. I like a flop bet:

a. We actually have a reasonable amount of equity, as we have a backdoor draw in addition to our overcards.

b. We'd love to encourage other weak overcard hands that dirty our outs to fold.

c. Since the flop is pretty ragged we will sometimes take this pot down with a bet immediately, as none of our opponents may have improved.

d. Betting now often gives us the opportunity to take a free card on the turn if our opponents hang around and we pick up outs.

3. Turn raise for a free showdown is good. My general /images/graemlins/heart.gif of free-showdown-raises is well-documented (ask brettbrettr...)

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're so anxious to see a cheap showdown, why are you not betting the flop with two overcards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's just me, but top pair seems a lot more showable than J-high. But it's probably just me.

Scott

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're so anxious to see a cheap showdown, why are you not betting the flop with two overcards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's just me, but top pair seems a lot more showable than J-high. But it's probably just me.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet for fold equity, not value. A lot of hands will make mistakes folding to a flop bet.

-d

[Jake (The Snake)]

I agree with the others about betting the flop.

I think there are some situations based on your opponent(s), the exact board, and the action where you can bet the river for value.

[Entity]

What was the exact flop? I don't think a bet here is necessary at all, especially if it's something like 962 or 942ss.

The turn raise is good, but you need to bet the river for value if you're just called. If you get 3-bet on the turn you can fold.

Rob

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
What was the exact flop? I don't think a bet here is necessary at all, especially if it's something like 962 or 942ss.

The turn raise is good, but you need to bet the river for value if you're just called. If you get 3-bet on the turn you can fold.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]
you mean fold to a 3 bet or fold river UI?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What was the exact flop? I don't think a bet here is necessary at all, especially if it's something like 962 or 942ss.

The turn raise is good, but you need to bet the river for value if you're just called. If you get 3-bet on the turn you can fold.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]
you mean fold to a 3 bet or fold river UI?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold to a 3-bet.

Rob

[Jake (The Snake)]

[ QUOTE ]

What was the exact flop? I don't think a bet here is necessary at all, especially if it's something like 962 or 942ss

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty tired, but I'm not sure I follow. Could you expand on which flops you wouldn't bet here and why?

[brettbrettr]

Hey Will,

Hmmm, never have we disagreed so much /images/graemlins/blush.gif. I'd check the flop, raise the turn, and value bet the river if it were a safe card.

Weird.

brett

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
What was the exact flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and so far the only argument for betting the flop that seems convincing to me is folding equity. It's entirely possible that nobody has a pair with this ragged board, and with three overcards to my pair outs, there are a lot of hands that might fold incorrectly. And if I'm really lucky, a bet could get it heads-up with the flush draw and buy the pot with a river bluff if the third spade doesn't hit.

Scott

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What was the exact flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and so far the only argument for betting the flop that seems convincing to me is folding equity. It's entirely possible that nobody has a pair with this ragged board, and with three overcards to my pair outs, there are a lot of hands that might fold incorrectly. And if I'm really lucky, a bet could get it heads-up with the flush draw and buy the pot with a river bluff if the third spade doesn't hit.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not really a convincing argument. Your FE is very small on this flop, and you're looking at an awful lot of flop/turn/river bluffing if you do get it HU.

Rob

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Will,

Hmmm, never have we disagreed so much /images/graemlins/blush.gif. I'd check the flop, raise the turn, and value bet the river if it were a safe card.

Weird.

brett

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that much of a disagreement, really:

The more I think about it, the more I think we should bet the river if called on the turn. We definitely have value there. The turn bet will often be coming from a hand that is less than top pair. No need to take the free showdown here, as villain's range is still quite large after the turn bet.

I do like betting the flop, though, for all the reasons expressed. I think we should definitely be betting if we have a gutshot, or if the bored is paired below the 9 (even less chance our opponents hit anything).

I think the question of betting the flop may be one of "style" as the ultimate EV of the flop play is largely determined by how you play the hand on the big bets streets, and I'm pretty confident that both betting and checking will prove viable strategies with perfect play on the later streets. It's hard to know which is better as there are so many variables.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not really a convincing argument. Your FE is very small on this flop, and you're looking at an awful lot of flop/turn/river bluffing if you do get it HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, I think the PFR will get a lot of incorrect folds on the flop, plus, with this flop, you can take a free card/raise/or fold on the turn when called with confidence exactly because it is a bluff.

This is an expensive line, as you need to bet a lot of cards on the turn and river, but I think a bet here may show a slight profit.

-d

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's not really a convincing argument. Your FE is very small on this flop, and you're looking at an awful lot of flop/turn/river bluffing if you do get it HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, I think the PFR will get a lot of incorrect folds on the flop, plus, with this flop, you can take a free card/raise/or fold on the turn when called with confidence exactly because it is a bluff.

This is an expensive line, as you need to bet a lot of cards on the turn and river, but I think a bet here may show a slight profit.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think if you're inclined to bet this flop because you raised preflop (which increases the chances that people check to you with a WIDE range) of hands here, then you should not be raising preflop.

But I definitely think you should be raising preflop. I just think y'all need to be a lot more cautious about spewing postflop with Jack-high when you're gonna have to have a LOT go right to take it down UI.

Rob

[jason_t]

Easy check.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy check.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to specify that you are talking about the flop -- i.e., you play it exactly like me.

[jason_t]

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[ QUOTE ]
Easy check.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to specify that you are talking about the flop -- i.e., you play it exactly like me.

[/ QUOTE ]

But of course.