A lot of serious things are said in "jest", Racisim in everyday life.

[Joe Tall]

Recently I just head the following...

<2+2er> he meant gold stars
<2+2er> see, the nazis had flair that they made the jews wear...

I understand this behavior is usually passed down from generation to generation. However, what can we do to stop it?

Why do people say such things?
Are their lives that miserable that they have to look down and mock people of other sects and creeds to make themselves feel better?

Why does the lack of education or intelligence still shine through in this century in statements like this?

I have never in my 33 years understood racism and never will.

[istewart]

That's from Office Space, Christ. Chill out man.

Also I just reread the post and realized I do not understand what is "racist" about any of this...

??

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]

Recently I just head the following...

<2+2er> he meant gold stars
<2+2er> see, the nazis had flair that they made the jews wear...



[/ QUOTE ]

I think we need some context to make sence out of this.

[Sponger15SB]

Richard Hayden: No. My pasta-maker is easy to operate, because the directions are easy to follow.

Janet Miles: Well, we've heard that before: you buy an appliance with easy-to-follow directions, and you get it home, and you need a Ph.D to figure it out. Usually, this "easy direction" stuff is a big lie.. like the Holocaust!

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Recently I just head the following...

<2+2er> he meant gold stars
<2+2er> see, the nazis had flair that they made the jews wear...



[/ QUOTE ]

I think we need some context to make sence out of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

especially since like stewart said, this is a quote from office space

I completely agree with Joe Tall. Some people say to chill out, but the fact is, it just hinders the progress to the day where racism is completely eliminated. The people who say things like this are always teh first to say that they are the LEAST xenophobic/racist people in the world.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
That's from Office Space, Christ. Chill out man.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, it's ok to repeat because it's in a popular movie!?!?

[ QUOTE ]
Also I just reread the post and realized I do not understand what is "racist" about any of this...


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on now, you are kidding, correct?

Shut The [censored] Up Jew!

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Shut The [censored] Up Jew!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

[tom441lbk]

[ QUOTE ]
Shut The [censored] Up Jew!

[/ QUOTE ]

rofl

i feel so bad though

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shut The [censored] Up Jew!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

This is EXACTLY what my whole post is about.

[pokerdirty]

http://www.lifeinwidescreen.com/siihp/n805002_9309.jpg

[istewart]

No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's from Office Space, Christ. Chill out man.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, it's ok to repeat because it's in a popular movie!?!?

[ QUOTE ]
Also I just reread the post and realized I do not understand what is "racist" about any of this...


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on now, you are kidding, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

saying the nazis made jews wear "flair" isnt a racist statement. Its just a factual statement.

Thats like saying "black people used to pick cotton" is a racist statement.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your thoughts on joking about slavery?

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you feel the Holocaust is a topic to be joked about? You feel one of the largest genocides of all time is funny?

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your thoughts on joking about slavery?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hilarious.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your thoughts on joking about slavery?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hilarious.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Im sure you have a lot of black friends, so it is ok to say this.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your thoughts on joking about slavery?

[/ QUOTE ]

dave chapelle thinks its funny

Reach for the sky, honky.

[craig r]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's from Office Space, Christ. Chill out man.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, it's ok to repeat because it's in a popular movie!?!?

[ QUOTE ]
Also I just reread the post and realized I do not understand what is "racist" about any of this...


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on now, you are kidding, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

I try to be pretty sensitive about racial, sexist, etc... ideas and do get upset when people say things that I think are insulting to one's race, ethnicity, etc... But, the "flair" comment I don't see as racist. The character in question was making an analogy between the Nazis and a work environment. What makes that racist? If I said that, "my boss constantly watches over me, has to know everything I do, drug tests me, makes me wear a uniform, and 'encourages' us all to say the pledge of allegiance everyday, he is almost like a Nazi", would you really think that is racist? I am really trying to understand this?

I thought your original post was going to be about the everyday racist things people say and don't realize it. Like my favorite, "I don't want you to think I am a racist, but xxxxx really XXXXX". As soon as you hear the wordss "I am not racist, but..." you are just about to hear a racist comment.

craig

[istewart]

I still don't understand how laughing at this is racist. Explain.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
saying the nazis made jews wear "flair" isnt a racist statement. Its just a factual statement.

Thats like saying "black people used to pick cotton" is a racist statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a fair and logical arguement. However, it's the context that the statement is used.

[istewart]

"Not to mention the blacks and the Jews."

[brettbrettr]

Hey Joe,

I think you're a bit more sensitive than most. I'm jewish, and I will frquesntly call other jews kikes, or jew bastards, or say things like "I hate condoms like Hitler hated jews."

I am not black and I will from time to say "nigga please." To black friends, to white friends, to lots of poeple.

I can also confidently say that I am not racist at all.

No, I don't think the holocost or slavery or racism is funny at all. I also don't think I'm making fun of any of these things so its cool.

brett

[Joe Tall]

Post deleted by Joe Tall

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you feel the Holocaust is a topic to be joked about? You feel one of the largest genocides of all time is funny?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even mind the word genocide. It's "side", which is good, and a "Gen" in front of it. Gen-o-cide. When you consider the other choices, genocide is actually pretty refreshing."

[tubalkain]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/annorax/lollercaust.gif

ADOLF HITLOLLER APPROVES

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not black and I will from time to say "nigga please." To Harriet Tubman

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you feel the Holocaust is a topic to be joked about? You feel one of the largest genocides of all time is funny?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even mind the word genocide. It's "side", which is good, and a "Gen" in front of it. Gen-o-cide. When you consider the other choices, genocide is actually pretty refreshing."

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant.

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
saying the nazis made jews wear "flair" isnt a racist statement. Its just a factual statement.

Thats like saying "black people used to pick cotton" is a racist statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

cmon alobar, youre smarter than this.

[ QUOTE ]
It is all about that too and there is some evidence of it in this post w/Catman's response and the racist poster's LOLs.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, anyone who laughed at that post is automatically anti-semitic?

That seems more shortsighted and closed minded than anything else in this thread.

That post is funny on so many levels.

As is the lollercaust. I'm goin to hell, I actually laughed out loud.

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you feel the Holocaust is a topic to be joked about? You feel one of the largest genocides of all time is funny?

[/ QUOTE ]

joe, istewart is perhaps the most anti-semitic person on this board. how he is still here is beyond me. arguing w/ him is futile.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
joe, istewart is perhaps the most anti-semitic person on this board. how he is still here is beyond me. arguing w/ him is futile.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like something only a nazi would say.

[kipin]

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/434/untitled24xa.jpg

[Publos Nemesis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your thoughts on joking about slavery?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hilarious.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Im sure you have a lot of black friends, so it is ok to say this.

[/ QUOTE ]

does it matter? the roman's enslaved white people. and thousands of years ago the jews killed people in order to get control of israel.

in the long run, we lived in a [censored] up world. the only way we can get through it is by joking about it.

please go see this movie

funny bigotry by a great jewish comedian (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0422528/)

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
saying the nazis made jews wear "flair" isnt a racist statement. Its just a factual statement.

Thats like saying "black people used to pick cotton" is a racist statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

cmon alobar, youre smarter than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats debatable /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I know what JT is getting at, I just think he picked a poor example, and just like hes a bit touchy about racism, im a bit touchy about people being a bit touchy about stuff like that. Honestly, it may just be because im not as enlightened as I should be, and coming from the background of being a white american male, I dont have alot of experience with feeling oppresed and being the victim of racism. But I also think that if its ok for other people to joke about it because they have a free card (well im jewish so I can laugh, or im black so I can say "nigger"), then im not gunna feel bad for thinking some of its funny. And I really dont think that makes me racist. I can see the humor in things without it affecting how I judge people.

[wacki]

Joe, I have tons of jewish friends. On pokernights I'd be out -jewed by at least a 5:1 ratio. We love telling jew jokes when we are drunk. Does that make me, or my jewish friends, racist?

Of course not.

You are a ball buster. You like picking on your friends. Does that mean your life is so miserable you have to make them feel bad to bring yourself up?

Of course not.

To be honest I don't understand why so many people give their friends [censored].

It's humor, if you can understand it, feel free to try a career at standup or write a paper for the American Psychological Association.

[B Dids]

The thing about this is that context is REALLY important in humor, and in terms of things that are potentially offensive, that's pretty tame by IRC standards. Joe isn't in IRC as often as others, and doesn't have the benefit of that perspective.

I think it's something that somebody can find offensive, but that somebody isn't me.

[Los Feliz Slim]

Ultimately, I care a lot more about what people DO than what they say. I grew up in the "progressive" Northeast, where everyone professes belief in equality but nobody I knew had any black friends. Then, I went to school near the Mason-Dixon line, where you would hear "racist" comments all the time, but people of different races worked and hung out together much, much, more than in the Northeast. So who's more racist?

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I don't give a flying [censored] what most people think.

[Landon_McFly]

Lighten the [censored] up everyone. I'm black, and if anyone was making racial slurs towards me in person I'd either beat their ass or make them look like an [censored] in front of a bunch of people.

WE'RE ON THE INTERNET. If you're racist, that's ok, because it shows your ignorance. I have no problem with that.

EVERYTHING IS ABOUT CONTEXT. Not what you say but how you say it and the circumstances.

BTW, the line in office space isn't racist AT ALL. If my memory serves me correct, he's comparing the waitresses to the Jews who had to wear the stars. The point he was getting at IS that they SHOULDN'T have to wear the flair.

SO SHUT UP.

DONT ARGUE WITH PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET UNLESS YOU'RE COMPLETELY SURE THEY WANT TO HAVE AN INTELLECTUAL COVERSATION OR YOU'LL END UP WITH A THREAD LIKE THIS.

[Ulysses]

Joe,

I long ago tried to stop worrying about words and just focus on people's intentions. If you take a little time to react less impulsively in these situations and try to look beyond the words, perhaps you'll develop a greater understanding and appreciation of who's really bigoted and who isn't. There are a lot of people who will joke around in a lot of ways that would be offensive to you, but don't judge people on anything besides what kind of person they really are. There are many other people who would never think of saying anything not 100% politically correct, yet would never ever even consider really being friends with a Black or Jew or whatever. I'll stick with the first kind.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately, I care a lot more about what people DO than what they say. I grew up in the "progressive" Northeast, where everyone professes belief in equality but nobody I knew had any black friends. Then, I went to school near the Mason-Dixon line, where you would hear "racist" comments all the time, but people of different races worked and hung out together much, much, more than in the Northeast. So who's more racist?

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I don't give a flying [censored] what most people think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great and accurate post.

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of people who will joke around in a lot of ways that would be offensive to you, but don't judge people on anything besides what kind of person they really are. There are many other people who would never think of saying anything not 100% politically correct, yet would never ever even consider really being friends with a Black or Jew or whatever. I'll stick with the first kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

A+

[Hamish McBagpipe]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do people say such things?
Are their lives that miserable that they have to look down and mock people of other sects and creeds to make themselves feel better?

Why does the lack of education or intelligence still shine through in this century in statements like this?


[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, I'm sick of it. Everytime I go to the local, people make fun of my "race". They say us Scots are cheap, like Jewish people, yet I'm constantly standing pints for others. The English say I'm a sweatie (Scot=jock=sweatsock=sweatie) yet I don't perspire overly much and wear a healthy amount of deodorant. I am rarely dour and don't do heroin. When I walk to work I don't like it when people constantly ask me what is under my kilt. I am particularly discomfited when people complain about my bagpipe playing. Yet, I soldier on.

Anyway, I am secure in knowing that the Scottish are far superior to any other wog, spic, dago, guinea, kaffir, spearchucking basketball slam-dunking rapping crackhead, dumb fat american, chink, frog, wetback, limey, towelhead, jerry/kraut/nazi, paki or nip who wants to debase themselves with this form of low brow insult.

[InchoateHand]

This sort of crap is totally irrelevant. Comments, at most, "reveal" something. Normally humor, but occasionally deep seated bigotry. Whatever. They are funny BECAUSE they are inappropriate.

"Flair" is not the problem.

Structurally and institutionally racist practices are. At a certain point, we made "racism" an individual issue---as in, you either are, or are not, a "racist." This is ridiculous. The real inequities are embedded deep within our society, and whether we can make glancing comments that allude to them or not (and you would have us not) does nothing to alter their very real, and very pernicious, effect.

Plus it gives ammunition to the right wing wackos who think "PCism" is the problem.

Lighten up you [censored] kike, from one jew to another.

[Paluka]

Joe I think you are way off base on this one. The example you used is a well-known joke from a popular movie. By your logic anyone who enjoys the movie Blazing Saddles is a racist.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
Joe,

I long ago tried to stop worrying about words and just focus on people's intentions. If you take a little time to react less impulsively in these situations and try to look beyond the words, perhaps you'll develop a greater understanding and appreciation of who's really bigoted and who isn't. There are a lot of people who will joke around in a lot of ways that would be offensive to you, but don't judge people on anything besides what kind of person they really are. There are many other people who would never think of saying anything not 100% politically correct, yet would never ever even consider really being friends with a Black or Jew or whatever. I'll stick with the first kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

The words are a pretty big part of assessing a person's intentions though. Especially on the interweb.

[partygirluk]

I'm Jewish, I don't see how this is in the slightest bit racist. I don't find it funny, but that is another point entirely. Politically correct people make me furious. Stop treading round eggshells, and just treat all good people like they deserve to be.

[man]

I don't think this is racism. and I can't stand it when people call things like this "racism."

to me, racism is making judgments about a person's or a group of persons' character based on their race, and is manifested in actions based on those judgments. racism is protesting the busing of black children from the inner city to the suburbs because they are black. racism is denying someone the right to vote because they are black. racism is denying someone a job because they are chinese.

racism is NOT saying that the stars of David that the Nazis forced Jews to wear were "flair." no one's rights have been offended. no one's pursuit of happiness is being prevented. at the VERY MOST, a bizarre and unattentive interpretation of the statement would sound something like "salute Hitler! out with the Jews!" which isn't even hate speech.

the only thing you can complain about is the fact that it's insensitive and offensive. in a similar way to it being insensitive and offensive for you to piss on my grandfather's grave. it is NOT racism. millions of people DIED because of racism. people were KILLED because of the color of their SKIN, and because of their RELIGION. the only thing that this joke is doing is hurting FEELINGS.

I agree that these things are insensitive and offensive. but if you're comparing this to the state of american society up until the civil rights movement, well that's just awful, because we have come a long way.

there was a scandal at my school because of "racist" content on a student-run TV show that was trying to be the Daily Show, but failed. so I've had countless drunken debates about this issue, and I'm kind of jaded at this point. but I'm still glad to be able to talk about it.

"salute Hitler! out with the Jews!" which isn't even hate speech



How is this not hate speech? On the one hand I am very glad America as a society, is at the point where we are having discussions like this, rather than whether to lynch a slave. We have come a long way, but why stop? I just do not see what good can come of speech like this (not the pieces of flair- that logically, was just not racist). I think that we still have division, if ANY thing like this exists. Maybe I am sensitive, but I would eventually like to see the world where even THIS discussion isnt necassary. But Im stoned........so YMMV

[maryfield48]

Don't dismiss insensitivity and offensiveness out of hand. Racism includes insensitivity to the feelings/wishes of the oppressed group. Doesn't mean that one equals the other, but it's still worth thinking about.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't dismiss insensitivity and offensiveness out of hand. Racism includes insensitivity to the feelings/wishes of the oppressed group. Doesn't mean that one equals the other, but it's still worth thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do they have to be opressed for it to be racist?

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't dismiss insensitivity and offensiveness out of hand. Racism includes insensitivity to the feelings/wishes of the oppressed group. Doesn't mean that one equals the other, but it's still worth thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do they have to be opressed for it to be racist?

[/ QUOTE ]

No-one crusades against WASP jokes because WASPs are not an oppressed group. Stereotypically, WASPs hold power (social, economic, and political), and don't have to care what people say or think about them.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
rac·ism Audio pronunciation of "racist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

[/ QUOTE ]

From dictionary.com, just to show that the comment you posted was not, in fact, racist.

It could be construed to be racially insensitive but, as other posters have mentioned, it's just a quote from a funny movie which apparently fit in the context of the conversation.

Now, I'm generally pretty conscientious about being sensitive to other races, and I really don't think that it's ever appropriate to joke about certain things. However, in the context of the movie, the line was appropriate. Assuming that it was appropriate in the context of the conversation, the line really wasn't either racist of insensitive.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
Racism includes insensitivity to the feelings/wishes of the oppressed group.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't. Racist and racism are two of the most often misused words in the English language. There's nothing racist about insensitivity.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't dismiss insensitivity and offensiveness out of hand. Racism includes insensitivity to the feelings/wishes of the oppressed group. Doesn't mean that one equals the other, but it's still worth thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do they have to be opressed for it to be racist?

[/ QUOTE ]

No-one crusades against WASP jokes because WASPs are not an oppressed group. Stereotypically, WASPs hold power (social, economic, and political), and don't have to care what people say or think about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stereotypically Jews hold more power per capita than WASPs, so lets all tell some Jew jokes!

Q. How do you get a million Jews in one place?

A. Drop a cent down the Grand Canyon!

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]

No-one crusades against WASP jokes because WASPs are not an oppressed group. Stereotypically, WASPs hold power (social, economic, and political), and don't have to care what people say or think about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are lots of groups that are now or have been oppressed that it's ok to tell jokes about. Namely, the Irish, Catholics and immigrants.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Racism includes insensitivity to the feelings/wishes of the oppressed group.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't. Racist and racism are two of the most often misused words in the English language. There's nothing racist about insensitivity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me? Just now you quoted one of the dictionary.com definitions of racism, why omit the second definition?

[ QUOTE ]
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you arguing that being insensitive to the feelings of a particular race is not prejudice based on race?

And by the way, "most often misused" is a funny concept when you are talking about language. You understand of course that if something becomes mis-used often enough, the mis-use magically becomes accepted as 'correct', right?

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand this behavior is usually passed down from generation to generation. However, what can we do to stop it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know JT. Posting it to 2+2 is a good start. You might begin with explaining how repeating the quotation evinces that a person thinks one race superior to another. You'll need to reconcile this with the movie that it came from wherein it is the speaker of this line who is made to look laughable by his stupid utterance.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do people say such things?
Are their lives that miserable that they have to look down and mock people of other sects and creeds to make themselves feel better?

[/ QUOTE ]

I neither know why people enjoy ethnic humour or humour like that at hand which in some ways references human tragedy, nor do I know why people behave like pompous twits. Btw, you're welcome to explain how repeating the line "the nazis had flair that they made the jews wear" (and its use in the move) mocks jews -- that would make me feel better -- give me the sense that you actually mean what you say rather than like the way it sounds.

[ QUOTE ]
Why does the lack of education or intelligence still shine through in this century in statements like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you seen the movie? Are you going to assert that it doesn't matter? Are you this invested in your clown show that you have to ignore such relevant context? I fully expect you'd need to, to sustain this -- a transparent gambit, but your effrontery is world class.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]

Are you arguing that being insensitive to the feelings of a particular race is not prejudice based on race?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what I'm arguing. An insensitive comment does not necessarily imply prejudice.

I drop the N-bomb all the time. Usually the white devil has a bigger problem with it than anyone else. Besides, I know I'm not racist, should I go out of my way to assure people that I'm not? I don't think so. You guys act like someone calling you racist is the world's biggest insult. Here's a tip: don't let it bother you and you'll have a lot more fun.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you arguing that being insensitive to the feelings of a particular race is not prejudice based on race?


[/ QUOTE ]

Races don't have feelings. People do. I don't profess to know how members of any race feels about this movie quotation. I don't presume to speak for a race. By your view, at what percentage of giving offense to members of a specific race should I be on the lookout for where something officially becomes so insensitive it is racist?

Whoever was(is) eric cartman...thats funny, but know that I had this avatar first.....just puttin it out there.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't dismiss insensitivity and offensiveness out of hand. Racism includes insensitivity to the feelings/wishes of the oppressed group. Doesn't mean that one equals the other, but it's still worth thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do they have to be opressed for it to be racist?

[/ QUOTE ]

No-one crusades against WASP jokes because WASPs are not an oppressed group. Stereotypically, WASPs hold power (social, economic, and political), and don't have to care what people say or think about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does not matter if no one crusades against anything. Has nada to do with anything. Keyword in your above statement is stereotypically.

[gorie]

this is going to be so funny.
hold on.
this is gonna be great.
hahaha.
ok.
ok.
omg lol this is going to be awesome.
ready?
...ready??! hahaha.
here it comes...



















black people?

[ QUOTE ]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/annorax/lollercaust.gif

ADOLF HITLOLLER APPROVES

[/ QUOTE ]
can someone avatarize this for me please?

[ QUOTE ]
black people?

[/ QUOTE ]

... and was i the only one that tried to highlight the blank space between "here it comes..." and "black people?" to see if there were any funnies squirreled away in white text? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[gamblore99]

Me and some friends had a big conversation about this a while ago. One of the problems with these jokes is that they can lead to actual racism.

My older brother is the perfect example of this. He makes so many black jokes that when he is in the company of black people, he is uncomfortable, and cannot "just be himself". He has become a racist. Now he doesn't hate black people or anything, but he makes racist jokes, and is uncomfortable around them, enough so that I think he probably makes an effort to avoid working with or hanging out with black people.

On the other side of the arguement, being politically correct all the time is very boring. Many of my friends make tons of jokes, and they still have many friends of different races/religions.

I do think these jokes hinder the elimination of racism, but they provide lots of entertainment so I will continue making racist jokes.

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
in the long run, we lived in a [censored] up world. the only way we can get through it is by joking about it.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is an important and true statement. Fact is, just about everybody alive today is descended from a people who bullied, enslaved, slaughtered, or otherwise [censored] up another random group of people for survival, resources, cultural differences, profit, or 'cause they felt like it. History really is the long nightmare from which we're trying to awaken. Only very recently have faltering steps been taken towards enacting the idea of a true brotherhood of man. And, yeah, we've all been through a lot of [censored] to get here. Nobody's hands are clean, and there's often not much we can do about it. All we can do is try to break free from the nightmare. Free yo' mind, and the rest will follow. I personally feel that one of the healthiest things one can do in this direction is acknowledge that what is funny is funny, even if it's also somehow cruel or insensitive, and that a good deal of humor is built explicitly on cruelty and insensitivity. What's acceptable, and what's not? Well, that's a complex problem. But let's try getting there in a chilled-out, ready-to-laugh frame of mind.

[Eurotrash]

did I spot an En Vogue reference in there?

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think these jokes hinder the elimination of racism, but they provide lots of entertainment so I will continue making racist jokes.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it is your view that this specific scene in the movie "Office Space" hinders the elimination of racism. I just want to understand what you are arguing.

[ QUOTE ]
did I spot an En Vogue reference in there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good lord you are awesome. I will now be reading all of your posts in hope that they are on point as they have been today.

[Blarg]

I think racism is distressingly real on every side, and that you see too much of it happily paraded about in OOT and elsewhere(the WOW MMORPG forums were about the most racist ones I've ever seen), but I don't think racism is exhibited by jokes. In fact I think jokes can be an antidote to racism.

Actually, being offended at jokes has come to be almost celebrated as if it were some perverse art form, when really it's more like shooting fish in a barrel and an easy, chessy out whereby one can assign oneself a moral height over others that is unearned. And worse, the attempt to achieve it is done so transparently illegitimately, at the expense of people who there is no reason to believe deserve it. I've come to believe that being offended by jokes is a sign of people who are not only misguided and greedy for acclaim even at the cost of slamming people who don't deserve it, but frankly not too bright. It's a good tactic for a bully and a rabble rouser, but among people of good will, it's an ugly choice.

It shows how messed up social relations can be when being well-intentioned can get so thoroughly confused with being a creepy pain in the ass.

Prejudice is very real, but we don't approach solutions or honest discussions regarding it by making a display of freaking each other out and competitively accusing each other. The bad faith required to try to make someone look like a moral inferior when it comes to prejudice because of a joke suggests that the accuser himself is uncertain of his own feelings and needs to take desperate measures to shore up his own self-image and public image. That he's willing to sacrifice others to prove himself is no kind of moral accomplishment and a blessing to no one.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
did I spot an En Vogue reference in there?

[/ QUOTE ]

anacardo likes his strong black brothers.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with Joe Tall. Some people say to chill out, but the fact is, it just hinders the progress to the day where racism is completely eliminated. The people who say things like this are always teh first to say that they are the LEAST xenophobic/racist people in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong.

Looking for the easy one size fits all answer, or signal as to who people are and what they're about, isn't a good idea.

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
did I spot an En Vogue reference in there?

[/ QUOTE ]

anacardo likes his strong black brothers.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're responsible for every aspect of American pop culture worth upholding. God bless 'em, every one.

On another note: Jesus Christ, how much does Blarg rule? What a thought-provoking, insightful way to STR8 PWN the OP.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Joe,

I long ago tried to stop worrying about words and just focus on people's intentions. If you take a little time to react less impulsively in these situations and try to look beyond the words, perhaps you'll develop a greater understanding and appreciation of who's really bigoted and who isn't. There are a lot of people who will joke around in a lot of ways that would be offensive to you, but don't judge people on anything besides what kind of person they really are. There are many other people who would never think of saying anything not 100% politically correct, yet would never ever even consider really being friends with a Black or Jew or whatever. I'll stick with the first kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best thing I've ever seen El Diablo say and it's one for the ages, dead on right.

The truth is, doing it any other way just unnecessarily injects your own personal bad feelings into situations where they don't belong, and says nothing about anybody but you.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]

I long ago tried to stop worrying about words and just focus on people's intentions. If you take a little time to react less impulsively in these situations and try to look beyond the words, perhaps you'll develop a greater understanding and appreciation of who's really bigoted and who isn't. There are a lot of people who will joke around in a lot of ways that would be offensive to you, but don't judge people on anything besides what kind of person they really are. There are many other people who would never think of saying anything not 100% politically correct, yet would never ever even consider really being friends with a Black or Jew or whatever. I'll stick with the first kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Advice taken Sir and thank you. I apologize for this thread as the original quote is out of context. Other things I have said stand as for such comments on a daily basis.

[shemp]

I gotta say, I'm really impressed, and at least a little stupid, if not a lot, to impute so much bad faith to you.

[Puss In Boots]

Joe, you're a [censored] moron.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
Joe, you're a [censored] moron.

[/ QUOTE ]


ROTFLMAO. Welcome to the forum, I'm sure you'll be loved.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you arguing that being insensitive to the feelings of a particular race is not prejudice based on race?


[/ QUOTE ]

Races don't have feelings. People do. I don't profess to know how members of any race feels about this movie quotation. I don't presume to speak for a race.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God for that.

[ QUOTE ]
By your view, at what percentage of giving offense to members of a specific race should I be on the lookout for where something officially becomes so insensitive it is racist?

[/ QUOTE ]

By my view? That's a pretty gross mis-statement of my view as expressed here. It's not about the degree of insensitvity. It's about the reason for the lack of sensitivity - see Diablo's post on intentions. The point is that someone can say something hurtful out of insensitivity. And that someone is less likely to be sensitive to the concerns of the powerless (for clarity, I am using "powerless" as a relative term) than the powerful. That's pretty basic human nature.

You need only a passing knowledge of history to understand that the concerns of any powerless group are generally given short shrift.

[garion888]

Why can't racism be positive? Chinese people...they're made of Candy!!!! Latin people...they can fly!!!

[diebitter]

I suggest we burn all copies of 'The Producers' immediately. This glorification on nazism cannot stand. We should also gas the maker of it.

Only then will our dream of cultural purity take rooot, unt prevail. Today OOT, tomorrow, ZE VORLD!

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you arguing that being insensitive to the feelings of a particular race is not prejudice based on race?


[/ QUOTE ]

Races don't have feelings. People do. I don't profess to know how members of any race feels about this movie quotation. I don't presume to speak for a race.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God for that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great. On the side of the angels, and shameless as hell. You don't do much for the good fight when you substitute cheap debating tactics and incoherent prattle for argument.

*plonk*

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

This is the best thing I've ever seen El Diablo say and it's one for the ages, dead on right.

The truth is, doing it any other way just unnecessarily injects your own personal bad feelings into situations where they don't belong, and says nothing about anybody but you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying it's the best thing Diablo has ever said is going way too far. I'm not insulting Diablo's post, and I know Joe Tall is a smart man, but seperating actual words from intent is something that everyone should understand by the time they hit puberty and women start sending mixed signals.

Why so many rather bright people genuinely can't seem to seperate politically correctness and actual intent will never cease to puzzle me.

No offense Joe, just trying to understand.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
They are funny BECAUSE they are inappropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]
Usually the more offensive the joke is, the more funny I find it. I doubt you can find a subject I think is too delicate to make light of. People often say "omg you bastard, you wouldn't think that joke is funny if one of your relatives died in X", and maybe that's true, but they didn't, so it's open season. Holocaust included.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you arguing that being insensitive to the feelings of a particular race is not prejudice based on race?


[/ QUOTE ]

Races don't have feelings. People do. I don't profess to know how members of any race feels about this movie quotation. I don't presume to speak for a race.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God for that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great. On the side of the angels, and shameless as hell. You don't do much for the good fight when you substitute cheap debating tactics and incoherent prattle for argument.

*plonk*

[/ QUOTE ]

Hilarious. You string a few cliches together that in no way address my point, ignore the substantive part of my response, and flail away with an accusation of "cheap debating tactics and incoherent prattle".

You don't have to respond to my points, but if you aren't going to even try, then don't pretend to either. This is the internet, just open another thread.

[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey there's nothing funny about the Holocaust! My grandfather died in the Holocaust. His damned gun backfired. Alot of us don't like being reminded of this travesty. So F you and F free speech. Viva la pooping in our pampers like a lil bitch.

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey there's nothing funny about the Holocaust! My grandfather died in the Holocaust. His damned gun backfired. Alot of us don't like being reminded of this travesty. So F you and F free speech. Viva la pooping in our pampers like a lil bitch.

[/ QUOTE ]

this joke works a lot better in the following format:


hey! i take offense to that.. my grandfather died during the holocaust! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

*insert long pause to make poeple feel uncomfortable*

yeah, he fell of a guard tower and broke his neck

Last night on a WWE PPV, Vince McMahon actually said "what's up my nigga'". Discuss.

[ QUOTE ]
Last night on a WWE PPV, Vince McMahon actually said "what's up my nigga'". Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]
It was a serious thing said in "jest".

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you feel the Holocaust is a topic to be joked about? You feel one of the largest genocides of all time is funny?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course its funny, in fact its a gas.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Great. On the side of the angels, and shameless as hell. You don't do much for the good fight when you substitute cheap debating tactics and incoherent prattle for argument.

*plonk*

[/ QUOTE ]

Hilarious. You string a few cliches together that in no way address my point, ignore the substantive part of my response, and flail away with an accusation of "cheap debating tactics and incoherent prattle".

[/ QUOTE ]

Point out the few cliches (is a few 3?) being strung together in: "Great. On the side of the angels, and shameless as hell." You've got three clauses there, two of which address the text immediately above, and the other, well, doesn't make sense in context unless you can find a bunch of cliches where I can't. Perhaps it has to do with my earlier post. Perhaps you just say stuff. I don't know.

I ignored your self described substantive response because I find it impossible to have a discussion with someone who says things unconnected to what they purport to respond to (see above)-- which is the category into which I'd put said alleged and ignored substance.

Note your concession that you weren't engaging me substantively (if I ignored the substantive part, the part I addressed was presumably not substantive) at the exact point I complained that you were nuancing rather than engaging me substantively. So we agree on something...

[pokerdirty]

[ QUOTE ]
Last night on a WWE PPV, Vince McMahon actually said "what's up my nigga'". Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

black people watch wrassling too

[man]

[ QUOTE ]
"salute Hitler! out with the Jews!" which isn't even hate speech



How is this not hate speech? On the one hand I am very glad America as a society, is at the point where we are having discussions like this, rather than whether to lynch a slave. We have come a long way, but why stop? I just do not see what good can come of speech like this (not the pieces of flair- that logically, was just not racist). I think that we still have division, if ANY thing like this exists. Maybe I am sensitive, but I would eventually like to see the world where even THIS discussion isnt necassary. But Im stoned........so YMMV

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's hate speech because it's not threatening anyone's personal health. maybe you could infer that that person might attack a Jew because of that mindset, but it's not a threat in itself.

my biggest problem is with the overstatement of certain acts as being racism. I do agree that it's insensitive and offensive to make racist jokes, but it doesn't even come close to being racism as I defined it before. people fail to make that distinction too easily.

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
Last night on a WWE PPV, Vince McMahon actually said "what's up my nigga'". Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Vince a heel this week? Nothing says "cheap heat" like racism.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"salute Hitler! out with the Jews!" which isn't even hate speech



How is this not hate speech? On the one hand I am very glad America as a society, is at the point where we are having discussions like this, rather than whether to lynch a slave. We have come a long way, but why stop? I just do not see what good can come of speech like this (not the pieces of flair- that logically, was just not racist). I think that we still have division, if ANY thing like this exists. Maybe I am sensitive, but I would eventually like to see the world where even THIS discussion isnt necassary. But Im stoned........so YMMV

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's hate speech because it's not threatening anyone's personal health. maybe you could infer that that person might attack a Jew because of that mindset, but it's not a threat in itself.

my biggest problem is with the overstatement of certain acts as being racism. I do agree that it's insensitive and offensive to make racist jokes, but it doesn't even come close to being racism as I defined it before. people fail to make that distinction too easily.

[/ QUOTE ]


WTF are you talking about, if you fail to see how saying...SALUTE HITLER! OUT WITH THE JEWS! is hate speech, I can not reason with someone like you, because you are [censored] nuts.

[SL__72]

Obviously this quote was taken out of context, but even still...

I think you are confusing the words insensitivity and racism.

[maryfield48]

I think I get it now. Your response below...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you arguing that being insensitive to the feelings of a particular race is not prejudice based on race?

[/ QUOTE ]

Races don't have feelings. People do. I don't profess to know how members of any race feels about this movie quotation. I don't presume to speak for a race.

[/ QUOTE ]

...was not random cliche-dropping. In fact you are taking the point that I said "feelings of a particular race" instead of something like "feelings of members of a particular race by virtue of that membership". The meaning seemed obvious to me but I can see that asking you to parse it that way was too much of a stretch.

In that case, all that remains is to answer your question. Yes, 'three' can indeed constitute "a few", at least in my vernacular.

Goodbye.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact you are taking the point that I said "feelings of a particular race" instead of something like "feelings of members of a particular race by virtue of that membership". The meaning seemed obvious to me but I can see that asking you to parse it that way was too much of a stretch.

[/ QUOTE ]

The topic is the suggestion that a scene in Office Space is racist in its offhanded mention of the holocaust and that one who quotes this scene, apparently under any circumstances but to denounce, is a racist. Not that it is boorish, unfunny, offensive to some, in bad taste, given to individual tastes, etc -- but that it is racist. You have not developed a definition of racism where this insensitivity to the views of some as contained in this movie scene is racism.

Your linguistic construction above does small violence to the language. Gestures towards how a race feels require a speaker presuming to speak for divers members of a race. Creating a rhetoric that elides that is convenient, but doesn't help dialogue. So, I asked what percentage of group members' feelings need to be offended? (See, I addressed the underlying point as well as the poor construction.) If Sarah is insensitive to the feelings of 15% of members of a group, is she a racist against that group? Why is this relevant? Because you cant be alleging the makers of Office Space are insensitive to the sensibilities of any member of a group (that we would agree is racism) -- rather you must be arguing that their insensitivity to some fraction of members of that group constitutes racism.

Or not? I concede!

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm actually not kidding. Where is the racism? Joking about the Holocaust is not really racism...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you feel the Holocaust is a topic to be joked about? You feel one of the largest genocides of all time is funny?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course its funny, in fact its a gas.

[/ QUOTE ]

holy [censored]

[DMBFan23]

paraphrased from NBC's The Office:

Dwight: The Schrutes are survivors. My grandfather was in WWII, spent half the war in an allied prison camp.

the way he just glosses over the fact that it was an allied prison camp is hilarious and isn't really captured in print. why am I posting this? I dunno

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
Shut The [censored] Up Jew!

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously an imposter. The real Eric Cartman would have spelled it 'Joo'.

[maryfield48]

Shemp,

Go back to my response to man (that's the username of the poster to whom I was responding on the issue of "insensitivity"). I'm not arguing the OP's correctness, or the Office Space quotation's racism. I'm simply saying to man that racism isn't limited to situations of physical or economic harm, as he seemed to be saying, and that insensitivity can be a manifestation of racism.

First off, that second 2+2er quote is a line from "Office Space." One of the funniest lines in the whole movie.

My best friend is Jewish, and I'm sure half the Jews in the synagogue would call him an offensive bigot for some of the jokes he tells. He's not a bigot, he just knows how to poke fun at himself. If we can't laugh at ourselves, who can we laugh at?

What bothers me is today's hypersensitive oppressive culture, where people can't even joke or make innocuous racial references without getting castrated in the public eye. No one ever bothers to ask "what did you mean by that?" They just overreact and foam at the mouth screaming for apologies.

Yes, racism is bad. It still exists. Humor is one way to combat it. To show that everyone on this earth can be laughed at, and that's what makes us all human.

And if you can't take a joke, then [censored] you.

ScottieK

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night on a WWE PPV, Vince McMahon actually said "what's up my nigga'". Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Vince a heel this week? Nothing says "cheap heat" like racism.

[/ QUOTE ]
He said it in a "hip" "cool" way to John Cena. Then they had Booker T walk past and go "Tell me...he didn't just say that?".

Which reminds me, an amusing, related video:
http://www.bofunk.com/video/2191/booker_t.html

Also, while I was searching for that video I found this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7092597087689846900

Y'all missin' da point. 'Racist' means you think because of your race, you are better than anybody else of some other race. Don't mean ya can't make a joke an' [censored].

See, I can love black people, and still hate niggaz.

[man]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's hate speech because it's not threatening anyone's personal health. maybe you could infer that that person might attack a Jew because of that mindset, but it's not a threat in itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

what I'm doing is establishing my own definition of the term, and then applying it to a situation. you can dispute either my definition or my application of the definition to the situation. in this way, you can reason with someone like me.

on second thought, if hate speech was restricted to threats alone, we'd have a pretty damn narrow definition that doesn't apply to nearly every statement that hate could motivate. I should've given it more thought.

wasn't that easy?