$109's... I am a post flop genius... but...

[bigt439]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG+1 (t890)
MP1 (t1855)
MP2 (t670)
CO (t880)
Button (t670)
SB (t1285)
BB (t2155)
Hero (t1595)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">Hero ?</font>.

Who's raising, who's limping, who's folding... and WHY?

[durron597]

This is hugely dependent on how the table is playing. If it's playing like I would guess a typical 109 would play, I fold.

[z32fanatic]

Fold. Limp if the BB is 30.

Limp or fold, table dependant. Im limping 65% of the time and folding the other 35%.

[ace_in_the_hole]

I fold in this spot, if big blind is 100+ I push and get called by KK.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold in this spot, if big blind is 100+ I push and get called by KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you misread the OPs stack and position.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
WHY?

[/ QUOTE ]

[adanthar]

you have &gt;30 BB and probably like flopping sets?

[z32fanatic]

I would fold because:
A. I'm UTG and will have to fold if it's raised because the raise will most likely be to 150-200, taking away my odds for a set.
B. I'll be out of position if I hit my set, assuming it doesn't get raised. (Not a bad situation but still won't be able to extract as much.)
C. If I limp, I'll only be playing this for set value and probably won't be able to bet any flop except for maybe 9 high. I'll probably want the extra 50 chips when the BB is 100 and i'll be stealing.

I don't think it's a clear fold, but I'm folding like 80% of the time here. If I had 88 I would limp, and if my stack was 2000+ I would limp.

[adanthar]

I am not entirely opposed to what you said, but the difference between limping 66 and 88 here is approximately 0% (the times the flop comes 7 high instead of 5 high probably come close to canceling out since 5 high flops give 66 more outs.)

[z32fanatic]

OK, but I feel more confident on a T73 flop with 88 than 66. I see what you're saying, and I'm probably too tight in these situations. Would you limp with 22 here? How many BBs would you need to limp in this situation?

[bigt439]

The biggest reason I don't want to limp is because I think in L3 it gets raised in one spot a lot. Plus, with only 30 bb's I'm not getting great odds on a set. I'll have very little bluff equity taking this 3 or 4 way as well.

If I raise maybe it'll get reraised, but probably not, I'm not that concerned, I see very few 3-bets with stacks like this in L3. The problem is I likely will get called in at least one spot and be OOP. If I could raise and then play the hand with position here I think I would. Obviously, it's a marginal spot and I think that being OOP swings it into -EV one for me anyways. There are some other small reasons but this is my biggest problem with this hand.

I posted this because I saw something a while back about what I remember as being a similar situation by strassa that said he'd raise and wouldn't think about folding. That is paraphrasing him pretty hard. I can't find or really remember the post, and hey, maybe it was nothing like this hand, but either way the small pair issue is one I've been wrestling with so hopefully this discussion continues.

[patrick dicaprio]

one thing to consider, probably the key is the table. if the table is one that will usually be raised even after you limp then i think you have to fold here. assuming you limp for 50 and it is raised to 150-200 then i think you have to fold here if it will be raised even a reasonable percentage of the time, which is probably the case. limping here is fine if you are relatively sure you wont be raised.

Pat

I'd limp you have 30bbs if it get's raised behind you can fold without giving up much of your stack and you could win a huge pot with a set. I think folding your losing a change to win a big pot and raising will probably mean you will have to play a big pot out of position with a marginal hand.

[Pokerscott]

3 options for me:

-Limp 60%
-fold 30%
-loooong pause and then min raise 10% /images/graemlins/smile.gif

swap limp/fold probabilities if table raising out limpers.

Pokerscott

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest reason I don't want to limp is because I think in L3 it gets raised in one spot a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I would fold. I don't expect to see many limped pots in a 109.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd limp you have 30bbs if it get's raised behind you can fold without giving up much of your stack and you could win a huge pot with a set. I think folding your losing a change to win a big pot and raising will probably mean you will have to play a big pot out of position with a marginal hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that the effective stacks vs most opponents are not 30bbs, you are overestimating the implied odds you have in this situation.

[johnnybeef]

this discussion becomes so much more interesting if hero is in lp or mp.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
this discussion becomes so much more interesting if hero is in lp or mp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I don't think there's a discussion in LP. I'm raising every time.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, but I feel more confident on a T73 flop with 88 than 66. I see what you're saying, and I'm probably too tight in these situations. Would you limp with 22 here? How many BBs would you need to limp in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

It really depends on the table. For example, I'm more likely to limp 6 handed than 8 handed than 10 handed. But usually, like people said, it depends on the aggressiveness factor. FWIW, there are/were lots of 109 tables where you can limp this, although I might be a bit out of touch now.

Also, if it's raised to 150 and the raiser shows the least tendency to suck, playing poker is fun.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this discussion becomes so much more interesting if hero is in lp or mp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I don't think there's a discussion in LP. I'm raising every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

[fluorescenthippo]

it seems to me that a LP raise occurs too often to call here

[tigerite]

LP raises do happen quite a lot in $109s actually. I think I'd fold this.

This depends entirely on how your table is playing. Limp if you expect to be able to play a multiway pot without getting raised. If you're up against tough opposition then the standard play is fold but you must raise some percentage of the time for deception value.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this discussion becomes so much more interesting if hero is in lp or mp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I don't think there's a discussion in LP. I'm raising every time.

[/ QUOTE ]


Um, are you sure? I would think this depends on the action in front of you. I mean if everyone folds to you and you're CO or button or something then raising seems fine but say you're cutoff and 3 have limped then I think limping is called for. If you can explain why raising after 3 limpers is better then I'd like to hear it.

[tigerite]

I think he meant first in, yeah.

I would very occasionally raise here, you're right, just for the old Shania crap. But I think most times it's a fold.