deep-stack 5-10 hand: JJ out of position

[mikech]

live 5-10, it was 6- or 7-handed at 6 or 7 am. background info on villain: he's a dangerous player, plays fast and loose and very aggressive. when i first got into the game he had a 5k+ stack; he then lost it all, reloaded for the max of 1500, and now a few hours later has a 5k+ stack again. he's been raising at least 50% of his hands, and probably over 90% when he's in position, which has been making me pretty miserable since i'm 3 seats to his left, so my blinds have been getting raised every round. i started the hand with ~4300, he has me covered.

he raises from the co to 35, meaning he has 2 cards. sb calls, i'm in the bb and see JJ. reraise? i just called.

flop: 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

we check to him and he bets 50, sb folds and i raise to 200 straight. he says, "are you pulling a move?" and calls. i'm thinking he has a flush draw.

turn: 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

pretty innocuous card. i lead for 400, he calls. now i'm thinking, hmm, am i getting trapped? but i still believe i have the best hand.

river: 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

another seemingly harmless card. what's my play here? comments on other streets welcomed also.

[AZK]

reraise preflop is mandatory. mandatory.

I check/call river.

[diconoclastx]

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reraise preflop is mandatory. mandatory.

I check/call river.

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[creedofhubris]

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reraise preflop is mandatory. mandatory.

I check/call river.

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[Garland]

Preflop, I would have re-raised to $150. Induce the river bluff. Pray he has diamonds and not 45.

Garland

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
reraise preflop is mandatory. mandatory.


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I'm not saying reraising is not the best option. It probably is. We know we've got the best hand and should probably make villian pay.

But there are some definite down sides. We're defining our hand against an opponent who's not gonna fold, is in position, and plays relatively well post flop. And we're building a big pot with a hand that's very difficult to play out of position (especially against this type of opponent). I think calling pre-flop is a valid option....Please discuss

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
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reraise preflop is mandatory. mandatory.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying reraising is not the best option. It probably is. We know we've got the best hand and should probably make villian pay.

But there are some definite down sides. We're defining our hand against an opponent who's not gonna fold, is in position, and plays relatively well post flop. And we're building a big pot with a hand that's very difficult to play out of position (especially against this type of opponent). I think calling pre-flop is a valid option....Please discuss

[/ QUOTE ]
you summed up a lot of my thoughts wrt my pf decision here. against most ppl i reraise, but against a good thinking lag i think it's a bad spot to do so, esp with 430bb stacks. i'd rather reraise here with 86s than with JJ.

but if my preflop intent was to play a smaller pot with a difficult hand oop, i then went ahead and built a big one postflop anyhow...so, yeah, i butchered this hand.

[greygoo]

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reraise preflop is mandatory. mandatory.

I check/call river.

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[howzit]

if he has a draw, his $50 flop bet is weak for a LAG and since you check-raise there, a big draw would likely put in a three bet. any overpair would probably see a bigger flop bet there. so looks like nothing, flopped monster, and then a smaller overpair (maybe QQ).

Turn looks fine, I'd check/call the river.

some people like to wait until a blank turns before making a move and I don't know if that's how you want to approach playing this hand OOP, but it'll help keep the pot to a minimum. (negative being you lose a ton of $ by folding a scare turn.)

[Jeffage]

Why is reraising preflop mandatory? I'm not questioning you since I'm fairly new to NL, but with such deep stacks, wouldn't it be better to see if we get a favorable flop and checkraise villian's autobet when the happens? Or is this weak tight thinking? If you make it 150 and flop comes A73 are we betting the pot? Curious...

Jeff

[ML4L]

Hey Mike,

[ QUOTE ]
you summed up a lot of my thoughts wrt my pf decision here. against most ppl i reraise, but against a good thinking lag i think it's a bad spot to do so, esp with 430bb stacks.

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On the contrary, the depth of the stacks is the reason that reraising here is probably best.

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i'd rather reraise here with 86s than with JJ.

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I don't see why that would be the case against the opponent in question. 86s is going to be much harder to play out of position against this player with super-deep stacks than JJ. Not to mention that JJ is the better hand intrinsically.

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so, yeah, i butchered this hand.

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Preflop was iffy, but flop and turn looked pretty good to me...

Hope it worked out.

ML4L

[JFB37]

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I check/call river.

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Including a push from Villain?

[xorbie]

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I check/call river.

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Including a push from Villain?

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The pot is about 1.3k, villain has 3.7k left.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Why does re-raising a guy who is raising 50% of his hands "define your hand"? If he happens to wake up with a better hand this time, that's his reward for being so aggressive. You'll get him back the times he doesn't have a big hand - which will be much more often given how aggressive he is.

[AZK]

no, i'm probably not calling a push on the river.

[cero_z]

Hi Mike,

[ QUOTE ]
but if my preflop intent was to play a smaller pot with a difficult hand oop, i then went ahead and built a big one postflop anyhow...so, yeah, i butchered this hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Right. As ML4L recommended, I would tend to reraise with stacks this deep, whereas with 1000 to 2000, I'd probably call. You didn't mention how well this guy plays post-flop, though; can he ever take his foot off the gas? Has he made any tough laydowns that you know of? How about tough calls where he genuinely considered folding (as opposed to making a "tough call" because he never folds)? These are the things I'd be thinking about before "defining" my hand.

I'd be re-raising this guy very often if he played well, and only with my good hands if he played poorly, so in either case, I don't think a reraise would define my hand very clearly in my opponent's mind. You generally play tighter than me, though, so perhaps a reraise does help to pinpoint your hand, which of course you particularly don't want when you're as vulnerable as JJ.

Your post-flop play seems fine, and I'd bet 400 probably, and be willing to call a raise of around 1000 in many cases (so hard to say without being there). Alternatively, check-call up to a pot-bet or so; you may be beat, but you're getting decent enough odds to pay off this dude IMO. If he's somewhat bad, though, I think checking leaves too much out there when he'll just call 400 with a 9.

Okay....

In my opinion this is a tell here, Will put it in qoutes.

he says, "are you pulling a move?".

Typically when someones asks this type of thing he is wanting to keep you in the hand.

6/6/, a/3, 3/x or even 3/3 are possibilities...you left out the river action so hard to comment if he has a monster..it does appear like he is trapping you though.

You have to re-raise pre flop here big, like 130-175 min. thats a nice flop for J/J, pot it and go from there..

[mikech]

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As ML4L recommended, I would tend to reraise with stacks this deep, whereas with 1000 to 2000, I'd probably call.

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hi cero, could you or ml4l go into this a bit further? i'm much more willing to play for my stack with an overpair-type hand when i only have 100bb's, i'd like to hear why you feel differently.


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You didn't mention how well this guy plays post-flop, though; can he ever take his foot off the gas? Has he made any tough laydowns that you know of? How about tough calls where he genuinely considered folding (as opposed to making a "tough call" because he never folds)? These are the things I'd be thinking about before "defining" my hand.

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i think he plays quite well. i saw him lay down KT on a KTxxQ board when he got raised all-in on the river, correctly folding to KQ; i saw him follow thru with big bluffs with missed draws after he sensed weakness; he gives action so he gets action, but he's no donk.


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You generally play tighter than me, though, so perhaps a reraise does help to pinpoint your hand, which of course you particularly don't want when you're as vulnerable as JJ.

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i do usually play rather tight, which is why i'd rather reraise an 86s in this situation, since i think it would also improve my shania.

some other reasons i'd prefer reraising with a mid-suited-connector type hand against him:

with JJ, i don't really want to play a big pot unless i hit a set. at the same time, however, it's such a strong hand that i would hate having to give it up when faced with a lot of aggression.

with 86s, on the other hand, i can still play the flop like i have a big pair such as JJ, or AK, and i wouldn't even mind an ace-high flop, whereas with JJ i wouldn't like an ace-high flop at all. i can easily toss 86s with no regret if i get called on the flop c-bet or meet much resistance/aggression. however, if i do flop hard with 86s, it's well-disguised, and there are more ways to flop something that i'd want to play a big pot with, other than just hitting a set. and as mentioned it broadens my hand range.

for instance, i played back at him later in the session with Q4s, flopped mid-pr with the Q and a flush draw, and managed to get back most of what i lost to him in this hand.


[ QUOTE ]
Your post-flop play seems fine, and I'd bet 400 probably, and be willing to call a raise of around 1000 in many cases (so hard to say without being there). Alternatively, check-call up to a pot-bet or so; you may be beat, but you're getting decent enough odds to pay off this dude IMO.

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as this hand actually played out, i think my river decision was very questionable. i ended up betting 600, he quickly raised me to 1500. i'm getting almost 3 to 1, but i just felt like i got suckered in (esp given his verbal tell on the flop, as someone mentioned), and reluctantly folded. i felt immediately afterwards that the right play was to check-call, but i'm not sure how much i should call: a pot-bet? 1k? half-pot? i can't see myself calling a push.