An open letter of concern to all the Mod's

Gentlemen,

I can only hope that the splitting of this forum is not permanent, and the final decision is one that has yet to be made regarding the future of this forum. I would not protest if it had not been pointed out by a moderator that he would be moving posts that he deemed unacceptable for the high limit forum.

As I am sure all of you are aware, the "medium stakes" forum has not garnered the interest to even justify having the forum in its short lived life. Perhaps that might change, but if it doesn't, I hate to think that the moderator of this forum will be moving posts by members into a forum that appears to be rarely visited and miniscule in size relative to the high stakes forum. I am specifically referring to a post by Gentlemen Gerry, where Barron sais that he would be moving "posts like these". I do not understand any reason to take a post that is not outrageously ABC and send it to a forum where it will be overlooked.


What is the purpose for this change? I hate to use this cliche, but I find it appropriate at this time, you shouldnt fix what isn't broken. I held that 2+2 had the best limit poker forums on the net, and there is no one who would challenge this.


The bulk of limit games on the internet are 5-10 through 30-60. I would consider all of these to be mid-limit games. However, who is to say that the stakes at whch you play define the level of knowledge you posess in this game?


I want to reitterate that my primary concern is a moderator who has openly said he will be moving posts that he feels are not apropriate for the high stakes forum into a forum that will not recieve 10% the traffic or attention that this one does.


If one were to define "high stakes", I am sure that it would vary from 15-30 to 100-200, and then some would say that "high stakes" begins at 100-200. I am of the opinion that the game is limit poker, and many of the situations that we face occur at all limits, and that we will all benefit more from eachother by not alienating samller stakes players, and by not intimidating players who do not play at high stakes from posting here.


The forum we had had flaws, surely. But that is what is to be expected when you have this kind of discussion where people are liberal in their comments and questions. I think that it will be in-effective to divide the forums, and I feel that it will hurt the long term purpose of all players here: to become better players.


I think that the forum we had was well ran and the most informative available, anywhere. I am all for improvements, but I think this attempt to improve has and will be counter prodcutive for 2+2 and all of its memebers.



I think we had it right the first time; when a stranger shows up asking if he should raise AK first in on the button, we politely direct him to a different forum.


I hope that the change is not permanent.



Tex

[Entity]

I really don't think you've given it enough time, of all times, over Thanksgiving weekend to make any decisions about whether or not it's an appropriate split.

Give it time.

Rob

I hope you're right.

It would have been nice for a FAQ to be put out before this split.

What benefits do you see possibly occuring from this split?

Any drawbacks????




Tex

[Danenania]

I think the medium stakes forum is doing great.

One page of posts????

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
One page of posts????

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't meant to offend, Tx, since I think you really do think you've got the forum's best interests in mind, but this has been debated a TON by a lot of members of the forum, including the administrators and owners.

When you consider the fact that people like me, who basically spend half their life posting about poker on these forums, hadn't logged on between Wednesday and today (Thanksgiving is a BIG family holiday for me), that should certainly indicate that maybe it's just a low traffic time?

Rob

[Jake (The Snake)]

There have been more posts overall in Mid than in High, fwiw.

No offense taken. I just find it curious that there was no formal warning or appropriate post regarding the change. Here Barron is saying that he's going to be moving posts to a different forum, and then in the mid stakes forum you've got BK posting 30-60 hands, and who's to say what is high limit, and who's to say what is HL strategy and what justifies a HL post as opposed to a post that is clearly ML but not small stakes......I think that someone should address these things this coming week, because I have a feeling I'm not the only one confused. I am a little flabergasted the Barron said he was going to be moving "posts like these" and that he would allow for a grace period. What is this? A biology exam or a poker forum? How about an "Offical Mid-High Split Post" to explain the changes?????




Tex

[Schneids]

You need to stop taking every word so literally. The forum switch is awesome. Trust me, you'll see -- it'll work out well.

Which part did I take too literally?

[baronzeus]

there are so many forums now that i often misclick and end up in the wrong forum /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[4thstreetpete]

I really like this change because I feel the high limits (ie 100/200 and up) deserve their own forum because the games are so different.
I'm a little unsure where the 30/60 games should go though. Do they belong on the high stakes or medium? I would think the 30/60 goes in the medium forum along the 15/30 and 20/40s but then again a lot of the high stakes players still play 30/60.

[shemp]

I don't play high stakes (so I'm only posting here because it is a feedback type thread that is related to the middle forum), and I like the change too. I think 30/60 belongs in mid-stakes.

[Cancuk]

Was there not ample open discussion on the split (as well as HUSH). I don't know any of the mod's or admin. personally, and i knew about the split. It was discussed a lot. He was going to move the thread because High, on these boards, is now the 30 game +.

Whats the problem?

Cheers

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Was there not ample open discussion on the split (as well as HUSH). I don't know any of the mod's or admin. personally, and i knew about the split. It was discussed a lot. He was going to move the thread because High, on these boards, is now the 30 game +.

Whats the problem?

Cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

to quote method man: "GETUM"

Barron

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to use this cliche, but I find it appropriate at this time, you shouldnt fix what isn't broken.

[/ QUOTE ]
We had longtime well-respected posters like Rick Nebiolo saying they would no longer post hands because there was no forum where their hands belonged. There were a lot of new forum members who play 15/30ish games saying that they didn't feel welcome in any of the forums. It was broken.

[ QUOTE ]
I held that 2+2 had the best limit poker forums on the net, and there is no one who would challenge this.

[/ QUOTE ]
The forums got to be the best in part by changing to adapt to the needs of the posters and to changes in the world of poker. Being the best forum doesn't mean we should stop trying to improve. Poker changes rapidly.

[Surfbullet]

Maybe BK, Dcifr, and bobby could put together a "Forum Split FAQ" as you suggested, which would help educate those who missed the debates or were unsure of what goes where.

The mid forum is doing well IMO, and I'm pretty sure 30/60 is the cutoff for posts that can either go here or there depending on the poster's interpretation of the posts complexity.

Give it a week or two. It doesn't seem like the high stakes forum has lost anything, and there are posts in mid stakes that would not have existed without the forum b/c they didn't have a home.. I didn't post 15/30 + 20/40 full ring hands previously because they had nowhere to go.

Surf

[BarronVangorToth]

I'm a fan of the more-forums-the-better POV, but I do wish that every level of stakes had it clearly listed what precisely the limits are of that section, so that people that are posting, say, a $15-$30 hand know it goes to Place X whereas the fella with the $30-$60 hand knows it goes to Y.

Each forum should have this info stickied OR it should be a part of the forum title.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

i would argue moving online 30/60 to high stakes which would probably kill medium stakes even more.

[Brian R]

My 2 cents is that if I had to draw a line between mid and high stakes it would be 20-40 and down is mid stakes anything above that is high stakes...

Brian R.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
i would argue moving online 30/60 to high stakes which would probably kill medium stakes even more.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't think it matters what stakes go in which section as long as everyone knows where their post is supposed to go: if I have a $20-$40 hand I want to post, I'd prefer to not try to guess where it goes (some consider the 20 game to be high low stakes, others may consider it low medium stakes).

Heck, you could get rid of high, medium, small, and micro and just label the forums according to what stakes are there:

D and beyond

C or higher but < D

B or higher but < C

A or higher but < B

Less than A

Whatever.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Pretty evenly split....I wish it was more one sided....

Ugh....

I guess I gotta start playing 100-200 now....

Looks like i'm going to need that inheritance pretty quick......




Tex

[beset7]

Why do you think more posts = better forum?

I'm of the opinion that the more posts that are available for someone to read, the better overall knowledge they will have. Example: I dont mind reading posts that are extremely ABC or amateur, because I like some insight into how those type of players think/play.

I'm able to sift throught some of the posts that are just repeats, but, in reality, poker is just mainly a lot of repetitive situations with different variables.

I think that the more conversation the better.


Tex

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the more conversation the better.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree. the more good conversationt he better.

similar to the old addage "practice makes perfect." well no it doesn't. however "proper practice [does] make perfect."

Barron

I agree with "the more proper practice" bit you mentioned, because it is futile to repeat something incorrectly over and over.

My point is that poker is similar to psychology in the regard that your source of information and your subject matter is people. I prefer having insight to as many opinions and reflections as possible, regardless of whether said opinion is "correct".

Some prefer a cut and dry, easily navigatable forum where they dont have to wade through thoughts and posts that they dont feel are beneficial to their education as a poker player. So be it.



Have you ever agreed with me, ever?




Tex

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]

Some prefer a cut and dry, easily navigatable forum where they dont have to wade through thoughts and posts that they dont feel are beneficial to their education as a poker player. So be it.


[/ QUOTE ]

i agree.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever agreed with me, ever?


[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

Barron

the split is great, why complain for? cant you just check both forums?

[Tommy Angelo]

"get rid of high, medium, small, and micro and just label the forums according to what stakes are there"

I think this is a very good idea.

Good idea.




Tex

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
"get rid of high, medium, small, and micro and just label the forums according to what stakes are there"

I think this is a very good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't really like it. I posted my thoughts in this thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4027640&an=0&page=0#Post 4027640)

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the medium stakes forum is doing great.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a mid stakes poster, I am very pleased with this change.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't really like it. I posted my thoughts in this thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4027640&an=0&page=0#Post 4027640)

[/ QUOTE ]


Suffice it to say that I saw what you wrote but I still see absolutely no reason to have the forums listed as they are and would find it more logical to have them simply state the stakes contained therein. Obviously, I'll read -- and participate -- about the same either way, but the alteration would be more intuitive and cause less confusion then the current system, where a new player who considers $5-$10 "high stakes" would post his question there and, likely, get cranked for it.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com