Raising to vary play and/or for deceptive reasons

[Slowplay]

Last night I made two different raises EP in order to keep the table honest: once with 67d and once with QTo. The first time saw an absolutely perfect flop of 67J (rainbow), which I bet and after the turn and river blanked-out, I ended up beating two busted gutshot draws (both 9T). I gave it all back, however, on the second hand when I flopped another miracle (KJ9) and checked with the intention of raising (never got the chance) only to see the turn (free card, I know) deliver a silver platter K to fill out the button's KJo. Some decent decisions, some really terrible ones. What sort of hands do you usually raise early with to throw opponents off for the rest of the session?

[SossMan]

Kind of hard to answer without more knowledge about the game.

Limits?
your image?
Tight, Loose, aggressive, passive, typical?
Anyone on tilt or drunk?
Favorite Color?
Boxers/Briefs?
you know, the basics.... /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[gonores]

According to your first and only other thread on 2+2, you commented that you did not think too highly of the opponents in your game. If this is true, then there is absolutely no reason to be varying your play. Discipline is what beats poor players, not fancy plays.

Imagine what would have happened if the flops to your two hands were reversed. Suddenly your 3BB/hr drops to 2.5 or 2BB/hr with no one knowing whether you folded AQ or 67s, and that is if you have the wherewithal to check/fold the flop. The problem with play variance is that you need to show down the hand to create the effect, and this can be expensive.

One more thing (since I don't feel like finding your first thread again). You mentioned you were toying with the idea of playing Axo on the button. I myself am not a huge fan of this play. Firstly, you are only going to hit an ace about 1 out of 6 times on the flop, and that means you'll need 2 or 3 limpers to get proper odds. Secondly, you may or may not be right about the limpers, but what if you get bet by the SB or BB on an Axx flop and you are holding A3? If you are so certain that no one has an ace if it is unraised to you on the button, you could theoretically play any hand from the button and raise when an ace comes on the flop.

Your appellation (english major word) worries me that you may be looking to make the glamorous plays a bit too much. Realize that at these levels, the game is not an art, it is a science, and discipline is what will win you money.

[Allan]

Slowplay,

I commented in your first post that I wasn't sure how much studying you'd done. I thought it was likely that you hadn't done all that much and was fairly certain that you lacked a basic overall winning strategy. This post confirms my thoughts that you should realy invest some time into figuring out when concepts and alternate strategies should come into play. Aside from the attrocious hands that cold called your EP raise how many others came along for 2 bets? This certainly doesn't seem like a table where you are lacking action. It looks like the type of table where solid straightforward play is gonna take down the money. You'll be burning through your roll if you are constantly applying strategies like this in places where it is unneeded and counter productive. How does a raise from EP with a crap hand keep the table honest? Sorry if I seem off the mark here but I feel like your other responders think the same. Check out that list I told you about.....


Allan

[Ginogino]

Slowplay:
Deception and variance have little or no place in low limit play because in the vast majority of cases your opponents are not paying attention to how you play. Since they have no idea what your "normal" play looks like, they are incapable of noticing exceptions. If you play against the same players for extended periods, that might change. Otherwise, you might as well make the optimum play each time -- no one will notice or appreciate the "pattern" of your play.

As regards the second hand in your post, please note how fragile your lead is when you hold a straight. I don't think you can afford to let your opponents have cheap draws at flushes and boats. Make them pay for their draws. They will tend to stay in anyway, and if they do, they'll make their hands just as often, but you'll net more money in the end if you charge them for their draws.

Gino

[paladin_zero]

I dont agree with your reasoning: "keeping the table honest". Were you getting bored? If you are going to keep the table honest, you can do so with your best hands, when they come. In these low limits, I prefer to show a lot of strength to the strangers, and some deception with the regular players, but under favorable circumstances. If you are new to the game (as I am) you will benefit most from a tight, aggressive table image, teach them to fear your raises. You don't want the stronger players to get a good read on you, but you dont want to give your money away being excessively creative, either.

[bernie]

what was your gauge of measurement that they were on to you? usually if im not getting much action (too much respect) on my raises, ill loosen up my standards. starting from a later position. though for fun, ill raise at times earlier. it's much better in late. but once in awhile doing it is fine. one hand isnt going to sink your whole roll.

in the 2nd hand, it doesnt matter if you bet the flop. it wasnt going to stop that K from coming. that's not the reason it came on the turn. it was coming anyway. you were destined to lose this hand.

to throw opponents off? i raise quite a bit in LP with alot of hands. i also raise alot out of the BB with many hands.

but tactically? i do it when my action is drying up. as said above.

b

[Ed Miller]

Don't play QTo from EP to "keep the table honest". 76s is an ok hand to do this with, but QTo is just a dud. Why not wait for a suited hand?

Second, I really don't like your thinking on the flop. What makes you think giving a free card was your undoing here? Top two is going to fold for one bet on the flop? I would for sure bet the flop, because the whole point of "raising to keep them honest" is that they won't suspect what you have in a million years. But how did the free card beat you?

[Slowplay]

Once again, thanks to all that replied; this is precisely why I decided to begin posting on this forum. All of your comments are well-received and appreciated. I am admittedly suffering from that quintessential rookie bordeom that compels one to attempt fancy plays, and I suppose that I still cannot accept that so many players (with far more experience) will limp with such poor hands and that a solid, tight/aggressive approach is clearly the most profitable in the long run.

I have in fact read quite a bit of poker literature (English guy), and just started flipping through Warren, which offers invaluable odds/probabilities for the confessed right-brainer; however, I suppose that I keep failing to remember that 90% of the trickier moves are designed to succeeed at higher limits (usually minimum 10-20) with better players. Can it really be that straightforward at a 6-12 table?

This afternoon I sat for about three hours (not that long, I know) and in that time I was only dealt two pocket pairs (33 and 77; dumped the treys, played the sevens from SB and tripped up to pull down small pot), the biggest Ace kicker I got was a 9 (didn't play any aces), not a single face-face, and three middle suit-cons (limped with them all; folded two on the flop and managed to bluff and win with the other). I nearly passed out from boredom, but at least I didn't lose, I suppose. How often can one expect a drought like this?

Again, thanks for all of the feedback and I hope that these imbecilic questions aren't too annoying. Time to stop watching Rounders and re-rent The Cincinnatti Kid for a reality check.

SP

[Ed Miller]

This afternoon I sat for about three hours (not that long, I know) and in that time I was only dealt two pocket pairs (33 and 77; dumped the treys, played the sevens from SB and tripped up to pull down small pot), the biggest Ace kicker I got was a 9 (didn't play any aces), not a single face-face, and three middle suit-cons (limped with them all; folded two on the flop and managed to bluff and win with the other). I nearly passed out from boredom, but at least I didn't lose, I suppose. How often can one expect a drought like this?

This is uncommon. In eight hours of live play, I typically see most starting hands at least once. 40 hands an hour for 8 hours means 320 hands. You'll get dealt each offsuit hand once every 110 hands, each pocket pair once every 221 hands, and each suited hand once every 331 hands. So in eight hours of play, you will usually see a wide array of starting hands including most of the good ones at least once.

[Michael Davis]

In most small stakes games, you don't ever have to make this play. Your opponents are a) not regular enough, b) don't care, or c) not paying attention.

If you are going to make this play, do not do it with QTo. If you need to make this play, it means they are folding to your EP raises a lot. If you raise with QT and get action, you are in serious trouble. If you have 76, you can be pretty certain your cards are live outs, at least.

-Mike

[Michael Davis]

"Your appellation (english major word) worries me that you may be looking to make the glamorous plays a bit too much."

A well constructed sentence for an English major. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[Michael Davis]

Do not use the Warren book for anything but odds, and I'm not even sure I'd trust those.

-Mike

[slavic]

MK -
Were are you playing in Seattle that you see 40 hands an hour? If it's the Muckleshoot, play at the higher limits must be a heck of a lot faster. Though I can't imagine the profit potential would be any better. The 4/8 game is just juicey.

Though in ~4 hours of play tonight I had AA once, KK 3 times, and had them cracked all but once. I made up for it though with AKs in a 6 way pot when it flopped the nut flush. I love being reraised by 2nd and 3rd nut.

[Ed Miller]

I generally play the 10-20 and it's soft. I often don't play the 15-30 because it is usually not soft. I didn't know you went down to Muckleshoot to play... we should meet up sometime.

Maybe I don't see 40 hands an hour... I was just trying to give him an idea about how often he should see good hands.

[slavic]

I went down on your recomendation, just missed being the winning side of a jackpot hand tonight, needed a T on the turn or river, oh well 3 outs to $9K is not too bad.

I had AK, loose guy behind me called with AT, flop of AKA. It didn't make it.

I'm sure I'll see ya there.

[Ed Miller]

Doh... jackpot's looking good these days too. My name's Ed Miller... I go by Ed M. on the board... and most people who work there know me. If you see me, come by and say hi. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[gonores]

lol...I'm not an english major, slowplay is. I'm a hack business major.

[bernie]

" How often can one expect a drought like this?"

remember this line the next time the deck hits you in the face all night long.

if youre getting bored, you may need to learn how to watch the hands youre not 'actively' involved in. but holdem can be a boring game. overcoming the boredom is one thing that separates the winners from the losers.

b

[bernie]

how often do you play at mucks? im usually somwhere in there. though not as much during the week as i used to. aks for bernie S. im usually wearin a black and silver/gray caesars palace cap.

not sure if MK's back in seattle yet. i havent seen him there in awhile.

b

[bernie]

youre back in the house? how often you playing now? i havent seen ya in awhile....

b

[Ed Miller]

Ya.. it has been a while. I've only been two or three times since I got back from Vegas. I'll probably be there this weekend for a bit.