Two hands that tilted him - was I terrible?

[Girchuck]

The him was a tight player to my left.
First hand:
I'm in the BB with QTo,
3 limpers, tight player in SB raises
I call, all other limpers call

flop is

3 9 T

no flush

tight player bets, I raise, everyone folds, tight player re-raises, I call (loosely?)

The turn is Q (3 9 T)

He bets, I raise he calls

The river is 5 (Q 3 9 T)

He checks I bet he calls, shows his cracked AA and asks if he can purchase my crystal ball.

Second hand in the same orbit, he is in CO, I'm on the button with AQo, two new players post in MP, no one else calls, tight player calls in CO, I raise hoping to drive everyone away, no dice, BB and posters call so does the tight player in CO
The flop is again 3 9 T no flush
checked to tight player in CO who bets,
I call (loosely?), every one else folds.
The turn is A (3 9 T)
he bets, I raise, he calls,
The river is Q(A 3 9 T), he checks, I bet he calls and shows 9Ts.
I was drawing to runner-runner on the flop.
Was there any way for me to know that?
He told me I was a maniac, am I?

[hutz]

I don't think you played either hand terribly. Incidentally, if your opponent/victim is the SB to your BB and the CO to your button, he's on your right.

Hand 1 -- Calling with QTo after a SB raise of you and three limpers by a tight player isn't exactly the road to riches (but it's defensible and hardly terrible, especially if you don't expect a re-raise behind you). Apart from that, I think you were fine. With all of the action before that point, you clearly had the odds to draw to your five outs after he 3-bet the flop (even if he flipped over his AA and begged you to fold). You played fine the rest of the way.

I like the flop aggression you showed. Many people would have called there and allowed the limpers to stick around with draws/overcards. That is a good example of raising with what could be the best hand (against SB's missed-the-flop overcards) or is second-best with a re-draw (if SB has AA-JJ) and wants to drive the other competing hands away. You played it well post-flop and got lucky -- a good combination.

Hand 2 -- You should be raising in this spot pre-flop with an eye towards putting money into the pot with the likely best hand, not just to drive people out. On the flop, you should have raised if you'd blow the other players out of the hand and would get a check on the turn from CO. Yeah, you got lucky with your runner-runner, but you'd have been nutty to assume CO had flopped top two with T9s. Your play was anything but maniacal.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

He told me I was a maniac, am I?

Reraising a tight player with QTo from the small blind may qualify.

2nd hand I don't think you can put him on a flopped 2 pair. The pot was pretty big. I don't see anything wrong with calling one small bet on the flop with 2 overcards. You raise when you hit the ace and he doesn't reraise. If you ask me, he's playing weak-tight there. I'd sure pop you back with 2 pair.

[lil']

Hand 1 - This pre-flop call is terrible, IMHO. You said yourself that this player was tight. What do tight players raise 3 limpers with from the blinds? Whatever the answer is, it is a lot better than Q-10o. You got lucky, though. I hope you were planning to fold on the turn if you didn't improve.

Hand 2 - You aren't raising to drive people out. If the posters want to call you with 2 random cards when you have A-Qo, that's good for you. On the flop, I would raise to drive the others out and get it heads up. You may be behind, but you have overcards to draw to and the pot is getting big. You had know way of knowing he flopped 2 pair.

A maniac is someone who raises all the time regardless of the situation. Clearly you don't fit this description.

[Nottom]

The only thing I would question is the call pre-flop in the first hand. Its not an autofold, but is definatly a fold in most cases situation.

I like your post-flop play in both hands, particularly the flop raise in hand 1.

No, you are not a maniac.

[hutz]

I hope you were planning to fold on the turn if you didn't improve.

How can you make this blanket statement? There were eight big bets in the pot after the flop and presumably would be a ninth if he were faced with a decision to fold on the turn if he didn't improve. I think the decision to raise, fold, or call would need to wait until the turn in any event and one shouldn't presume a fold would be in order regardless of the turn card. If a total brick hit, a call with 9:1 pot odds and likely 10:1 or better implied odds to hit his 5-outer could be appropriate, assuming he thought all of his outs were clean.

[lil']

Whoops, you are right about the odds on the turn, even if a brick hits. I forgot there were several others who called the raise pre-flop.

[SossMan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Reraising a tight player with QTo from the small blind may qualify.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't reraise the SB w/ QTo, he just called the pre-flop raise w/ QTo from the big blind. W/ 3 limpers he's getting 9 to 1 on his call, assuming the limpers all just call (no limp reraises). I think its close, but probably okay. Certainly not terrible, like some others have suggested.

[lil']

Perhaps I'm being too hard on the chap, but flopping a pair, even top pair, is often not going to be enough in this spot. It just seems like an invitation to get a second or (with all the other limpers) third best hand. If it was suited, that would be a different story.

Unless you flop a straight draw (11:1 odds) you can't be too happy.

[bernie]

no, youre nt a maniac. though in hand 2 i may have raised his flop bet.

and AQ usually beats T9. screw him.

b

[Ed Miller]

He told me I was a maniac, am I?

You're not a maniac. Maniacs raise with nothing. You instead call with nothing. That just makes you loose.

I would have folded QTo from the BB to a tight player's raise (I would fold up to KQo in that spot). I would have folded AQo on the flop when a tight player bets into me. Even if you aren't drawing to runner-runner, you are often drawing to no more than 3 outs.

Incidentally, he didn't 3-bet you on the turn when you caught your Ace... that means he is probably a little too passive.

[Ed Miller]

You people's advice is really to raise a tight player's bet on a T93 flop with AQo with three people to act behind you?

You have nothing. Let me repeat. You have nothing. You are being bet into by a guy who must have you beaten unless he has QJ (and who might not bet into you from your right with QJ fearing a raise knocking out the field).

So the guy betting into you has you drawing almost certainly... who knows what the people behind you have... someone could have checked a monster (though that's always a relatively low probability). And who knows if your outs will even give you the best hand. Q could make a straight.. either an A or Q could make someone else two pair.

Man... you people spend all your time whining when your top pairs get cracked all the time... and then you sit there putting in two bets on the flop when you are drawing at 7-1 to that same hand? You missed. Someone else didn't. Fold your hand.

[Michael Davis]

I think you should have been out of the first hand preflop. Once you flop the pair, you're stuck till the bitter end, but can probably fold on the river against most. A raise from the SB here is too strong.

The second hand you should have folded on the flop. You're not closing the action, and everyone else in the hand could checkraise.

-Mike

[Michael Davis]

This is definitely an autofold against most raises except those from maniacs and late position openers.

-Mike

[lil']

There's no doubt in my mind the player has a nine or ten. But, if his raise gets the others to fold and buys a free card, isn't it worth it? You get 5.5:1 on your raise, when the odds of one of your overcards hitting by the river is something like 3.25:1. (I think /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif )

If you get three bet on the flop by the tight guy you can toss it, knowing he has two pair, a set, or A-10.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just explaing my thinking.

[Ed Miller]

Yes... if everything goes 100% according to plan, then you have a modest overlay. You are betting that

1) Tight player has one of KT, JT, T8, QJ basically
2) No one behind you was checking a hand he planned on playing
3) Tight player will just call your raise and meekly check to you on the turn

You've got to hit that parlay in order to enjoy a profit of about 3 or 4 bets or so. You are betting 2 bets for your shot at the parlay. Having played as much poker as you have, will this series of events materialize the 33-40% of the time they have to in order to show a profit?

[bernie]

yes, id raise him. id put him on a T and still raise him. even tight players loosen their limp standards in LP. i want it HU now if i can get it. there's no flush draws out, so youre outs could easily be clean. no way im folding here for 1 bet. he didnt say this guy was mother teresa betting into you. he may also slow way down after you raise.

folding here is a mistake. but calling is worse, i think. you dont have to fit or fold this flop.

you do have something, you have position and a bettor, who may be tilting a titch on your immedieate right. you have some options if you hit or miss your hand on the turn and it's checked to you.

im actually suprised by your reaction to this. this isnt 'that' coordinated of a flop.

b

[bernie]

many tight players dont bet draws either, which would lead me more towards this guy having a T. now all's i have to worry about is his kicker pairing one of my cards. he could easily, and more-so have T9, JT than QT or AT.

and as the other responder mentioned, if 3 bet, you can fold.

and it doesnt have to go 100% according to plan. when does it ever really do that anyways?

b

[bernie]

"You're not closing the action, and everyone else in the hand could checkraise"

or you could give him credit that the table was passive enough that a c/r was minimal. i dont really advocate calling here.

b

[34TheTruth34]

tight player bets, I raise, everyone folds, tight player re-raises, I call (loosely?)

I think you played the flop fine. Raise to drive the rest of the players out, which you did. When he reraises, it almost always means a big pair. You have an easy call of the reraise because the pot is decent sized at this point. With a typical opponent at these limits, I'd probably call the reraise intending to fold if I don't improve. Once you hit the turn, obviously you're going to the showdown.