Large Pot, Terrible Flop

Source of an argument between me and a friend. Loose passive 15/30 Friday night game. You're dealt A /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the BB. Pre-flop action is 3 limpers, a raise on the button, a call in the SB, and a re-raise from you in the BB that everyone calls. 18SB going to the flop 6 handed.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks. What's your action? With redraws, chops, and dirty cards, how many outs do you give yourself here if you're behind? If you lead and it comes back 3 bet on the flop what is your action? If the flop is capped and you see a multiway turn what is your plan?

[CardSharpCook]

One thing at a time, dude. You bet. Now what happened?

You check-raise or check-fold. If you bet here, you are trapping yourself with the hardest hand to fold on later streets (AA). You check, if it checks around to a late-pos player, then you can check-raise to knockout the field. A single bet here is not eliminating anyone. The idea with AA in this situation is to knock-out the field and/or not lose any more money. If you check, and it is 2 bets to you, then you can throw your aces away. The worst possible thing to do here is bet out, b/c everyone is going to call and you will have no idea where you stand. Check here everytime! If the next player bets, and everyone calls, i would just call, again, bc a raise is going to get you nowhere. Whatever you do, if you are still in the hand at the turn, check again. If you hit the straight, no one is calling, if you hit an Ace, try to get to the river as cheaply as possible.

[CardSharpCook]

what hands are you hoping to fold? 66? Ok... check/rz to knock out 66. Your other possible folders are J8, Q9 and other hands you are really indifferent to whether or not they call. You are betting here because you have equity vs. the field. There is no chance of knocking out a T and knocking out a weaker ace is just silly. There are plenty of hands that are losing to you right now, that would be perfectly happy to cap this flop. YOU WILL LEARN VERY LITTLE ON THE FLOP. So bet it out. You ahead of a reasonable range of hands for the field.

[ QUOTE ]
You bet. Now what happened?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call, fold, raise, re-raise, fold.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You bet. Now what happened?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call, fold, raise, re-raise, fold.

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Call and see a turn. If it's a red deuce, I would fire again and see where that takes me.

[mterry]

I think c/r the flop is the way to go. Information and thinning the field at this point is critical. Also, I'd like to force 66 or any Q to fold, rather than collect from them, since I find that it is much easier to play a big pot correctly when the field is thinner. Although I could see an argument for not thinning the field if known donks are in there with you and a player capable of making good (semi) bluffs.

[CardSharpCook]

what Qs do you imagine are out there that you fold? Q8? Come on. AQ-Q9 are all calling, don't deceive yourself. Fine, you can fold out 66, but who really cares?

Actually, the other stuff's pretty elementary, so I'm just going to cut to the chase: can we consider a fold when the button makes it two back to us and we're not closing the action? Blah blah, pot equity, blah blah, dirty outs. Big pot, though.

[CardSharpCook]

no, not on the flop. There are plenty of drawing hands the should juice this flop. Also, we are ahead of a couple hands like AK/KQ/QJ against whom we are ahead right now, or have a ton of outs against. There is turn action/cards that can get me to fold this, but not on the flop.

[elindauer]

Whichever one of you suggested folding is crazy. You have a strong hand + a draw in a big pot. You're definitely going to see the turn, and you'll show it down often.

On this board, there are tons of draws that might raise for value (pair + str8 draw, flush draw), plus made hands that you beat that may raise for value / protection (AK), not to mention that against most made hands better than yours you have a strong enough draw to continue anyways (9 outs immediately vs 2 pair, 6 outs vs a flopped set). Folding is right out.

good luck.
eric

[Spicymoose]

I don't see what betting here does. I am seeing the turn almost always, but I don't think we even have enough equity to try to get value in. You definetly don't protect your hand by betting. I would see a turn, and if it is safe, then consider betting, or possibly another action depending on what happend on the flop.

[CardSharpCook]

Betting builds value for what should be the best hand. You have equity vs. the field.