How much of good short play is avoiding good players?

[ElSapo]

Folded to the SB who is a good regular in the Absolute 2/4 games. SB raises, and I call with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Flop is 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

He bets, I call.

Turn is a 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, he bets, I raise and he three-bets.

I feel like I do fine in these games (maybe better than fine sometimes) as long as I can avoid the better players. I think my game inhabits a sort of B-level spot where I beat the worse players, but allow the aggro TAGs to get under my skin and often pick bad spots to fire back.

[milesdyson]

well it's not so much avoiding them - if you're bonus whoring absolute, it's a little hard to miss all of them. but you should try not to sit in the seat left of them.

in this hand, you should 3-bet preflop and (edit: bet the flop) lead the flop. his range is huge and he'll miss often. he will also fold better hands (mainly better aces, but also stuff like K5 on QJ5 flop) to your flop bet.

given your play, there is no way you can call that 3-bet. this is AQ/AK at the least. your weighted outs here, if i had to estimate, are 2.8 or so.

[slavic]

They feel the same way about you.

I normally play these hands like I have a pair right up front on the flop. It's much more consistent with your normal way of playing than waiting for the turn.

You make money off of making other players mistakes, the better players make fewer mistakes or cause others to make more mistakes. So you do not make as much or anything them against them because they make few mistakes versus you or they cause you to make more mistakes(or just bigger ones) than they do. So avoiding the better players is not a bad deal at all. With that said most of these guys do make mistakes thye just don't make the terrible ones that the fish do. Sometimes they don't defend enough, sometimes they are a little too agg, or too pasive, or they miss a value bet every now and then. So if you can play well you still make something.

[xLukex]

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well it's not so much avoiding them - if you're bonus whoring absolute, it's a little hard to miss all of them. but you should try not to sit in the seat left of them.

in this hand, you should 3-bet preflop and lead the flop. his range is huge and he'll miss often. he will also fold better hands (mainly better aces, but also stuff like K5 on QJ5 flop) to your flop bet.

given your play, there is no way you can call that 3-bet. this is AQ/AK at the least. your weighted outs here, if i had to estimate, are 2.8 or so.

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He can't lead out. Villain is SB and hero is BB. You definitely need a solid read on these types of players. You can't call that 3-bet with nothing, and I doubt you'll get him to fold.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
in this hand, you should 3-bet preflop and (edit: bet the flop) lead the flop. his range is huge and he'll miss often. he will also fold better hands (mainly better aces, but also stuff like K5 on QJ5 flop) to your flop bet.

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I think this gets at one of my problems: the players I see often, we have a decent idea about each other's ranges. And so post-flop aggression comes off, often, as a bluff. I think three-betting more with hands like A5s is probably going to save me much more aggrevation, and yeah, getting someone to dump a better Ace is the big advantage.

Obviously, sometimes your timing is just off or you run into a hand. But I'm not taking the initiative in spots where I should sometimes.

[ElSapo]

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They feel the same way about you.

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That's a nice thought...

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I normally play these hands like I have a pair right up front on the flop. It's much more consistent with your normal way of playing than waiting for the turn.

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So you're saying waiting for the turn looks bluff-ish against a player where we both know each other?

[adsman]

What I try to do against the good players in these games is to try and put the maximum pressure on them when they could have whiffed. Some of these guys will try and pop you on the flop, some of them will try it on the turn. What I do see fairly regularly is that if they're making a move to try and knock you out, then they could be vulnerable. But it's not easy to zig when they zag. I enjoy playing this game. I think it's good training.

[ElSapo]

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But it's not easy to zig when they zag. I enjoy playing this game. I think it's good training.

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No doubt about that -- easy games seem much easier after playing some though short players.

[Alobar]

avoiding the better playeres is a smart move. Becoming better than the better players is an even better move /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I dont like the turn raise, if he folds it was just with a worse hand. And you cost yourself the opportunity to draw out on him if he has a better hand (you could potentially have a ton of outs).