a common situation

no reads, but very loose table. a few greater questions:

is this played right?
MP hesitated to bet every street.. should I have raised him to isolate?
In general, do I want to raise to isolate with these MP TK/2K hands?
if i call on the flop, is calling down appropriate?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

[hemstock]

I would have bet/called the flop and fold the turn UI.

you mean just called? it was a bet to me on the flop.

i also brought up this hand because MP had a very peculiar bet, constantly hesitating.

[hemstock]

Sorry I read the hand wrong.
Since you act after the raiser, raise and call a 3 bet fold the turn UI. If he just calls, take the free card on the turn or bet for a free showdown.

[ClaytonN]

If I'm playing this preflop, I'm raising to buy the button and knock out the blinds.

Accordingly, I'm raising the flop.

[Cancuk]

I would raise preflop. or fold preflop. either one.

raise preflop.. good point!

but anyway, about the general question of these second pair hands?

[Cancuk]

raise the flop, bet the turn, check the river behind. fold to any aggression UI.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop, bet the turn, check the river behind. fold to any aggression UI.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you bet the turn if you check behind on river?

If you think you're behind, Why bet turn? If you think you're ahead why check river?

i don't get this line, please explain

[Obliky]

Raise preflop, especially as the table is very loose. You more than likely have a better hand than MP (preflop) so raise for value and to isolate.

As you played it:

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop, bet the turn, check the river behind. fold to any aggression UI.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to check my reasoning, we are raising this flop to protect our hand right?

[Cancuk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop, bet the turn, check the river behind. fold to any aggression UI.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you bet the turn if you check behind on river?

If you think you're behind, Why bet turn? If you think you're ahead why check river?

i don't get this line, please explain

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't know if we're ahead or behind. This line gets us to showdown the cheapest, forces people to call more bets on the flop or fold (whcih we want) and doesn't give any free cards to a draw (i don't have the hand infront of me, so i'm not sure if there are draws or not).

cheers.

drawless board, what are we protecting against?

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
drawless board, what are we protecting against?

[/ QUOTE ]

overcards

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop, bet the turn, check the river behind. fold to any aggression UI.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to check my reasoning, we are raising this flop to protect our hand right?

[/ QUOTE ]

From what, Just 1pair? (5+ outs?).

About the preflop raise, if MP is loose sure but if hes tight(Table means very little, i want a play specific read here) just limp it.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop, bet the turn, check the river behind. fold to any aggression UI.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to check my reasoning, we are raising this flop to protect our hand right?

[/ QUOTE ]

From what, Just 1pair? (5+ outs?).

[/ QUOTE ]

collectively the players behind you could have up tons of outs against you (10s, Js, As) - not raising this flop is a big mistake IMO

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop, bet the turn, check the river behind. fold to any aggression UI.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you bet the turn if you check behind on river?

If you think you're behind, Why bet turn? If you think you're ahead why check river?

i don't get this line, please explain

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't know if we're ahead or behind. This line gets us to showdown the cheapest, and doesn't give any free cards to a draw (i don't have the hand infront of me, so i'm not sure if there are draws or not)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm fair enough, i kind of hate playing hands like this as we extract a "Average" ammount from villan.

Meaning when we're ahead we get same, and when we're behind we lose the same. I like punishing when ahead and folding wehn behind but obviously this leaves me to be bluffed, some may say "weak tight" but i base actions on reads and trust them.

[Obliky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop, bet the turn, check the river behind. fold to any aggression UI.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you bet the turn if you check behind on river?

If you think you're behind, Why bet turn? If you think you're ahead why check river?

i don't get this line, please explain

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't know if we're ahead or behind. This line gets us to showdown the cheapest, and doesn't give any free cards to a draw (i don't have the hand infront of me, so i'm not sure if there are draws or not)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm fair enough, i kind of hate playing hands like this as we extract a "Average" ammount from villan.

Meaning when we're ahead we get same, and when we're behind we lose the same. I like punishing when ahead and folding wehn behind but obviously this leaves me to be bluffed, some may say "weak tight" but i base actions on reads and trust them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are not sure about the flop raise take at look at SSH pg 96, also check out "When calling cannot be right" on pg 156.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]

MP hesitated to bet every street

[/ QUOTE ]

This information is relatively useless. never base actions on time of response mate.

His gf could of been kissing him at that point in the hand.

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB


[/ QUOTE ]

So after looking at this hand again, MP limps and has 2guys to act after him yet HE BETS.

When he bets this flop i reckon he has a queen(We have no reads) pretty dam often.

If we're raising this flop(protection, Possibly ahead) and Button or SB/BB call we actually betting the turn again or taking free card/folding?

Due to a 6SB pot i'd be often tempted to let this slide. Only because we have up to 6outs and possibly ahead that i'd continue.

On the turn when he bets again i think calling is very bad.

So the way OP played i'd fold the turn UI.
The way i'd play: Without a read i'd be either FOLDING(Yep) or peeling and folding.

Call me weak, but MP betting sucks.

[POKhER]

MP didn't raise though, and we have 2guys to act after him, this is why i think we're often behind. you dont agree?

About hand protection, yeah i agree with raising if you think you're ahead. I dont though hence i'd be willing to fold or peeling for a FD/Improved hand or to see what MP does on this street.

Questions:
Do you think we're ahead of MP?
You're using the line already quoted?

good read, he had Q8o. if i raised flop and was called i'd def. fold turn UI.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
if i raised flop and was called i'd def. fold turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok call, of course this depends who calls and bets /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

You noted down his hand yes?
"Limp:Q8oMP, [MORE HANDS HERE]"

well yeah, i mean if one of the blinds cold calls the flop.

[Cancuk]

[ QUOTE ]
good read, he had Q8o. if i raised flop and was called i'd def. fold turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't good, I would guess that 90+ percent of the time he's calling the flop raise. probably even more.

no, i meant cold called by a blind not by the first flop raiser.

[Obliky]

[ QUOTE ]
MP didn't raise though, and we have 2guys to act after him, this is why i think we're often behind. you dont agree?

About hand protection, yeah i agree with raising if you think you're ahead. I dont though hence i'd be willing to fold or peeling for a FD/Improved hand or to see what MP does on this street.

Questions:
Do you think we're ahead of MP?
You're using the line already quoted?

[/ QUOTE ]

The main point im making is that calling here is bad. I see this as a raise or fold situation.

I would raise here for these reasons:

1, Raising buys you position throughout the hand. Its likely that the button, SB and BB will fold therefore putting us HU with villian with excellent position.

2, We are likely to get checked to on the turn and can therefore either take a free card or bet and take a free showdown on the river unimproved.

3, Just because villian bet doesnt necessarily mean he has a Q.

If we have a loose/passive read on villian then by all means fold, if we just have a 'very loose table' read i would raise.

good point about putting us into good position if i put away the blinds.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]

I would raise here for these reasons:



1, Raising buys you position throughout the hand. Its likely that the button, SB and BB will fold therefore putting us HU with villian with excellent position.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I dont debate this at all, but i only raise if i think i'm ahead.

[ QUOTE ]

2, We are likely to get checked to on the turn and can therefore either take a free card or bet and take a free showdown on the river unimproved.


[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, another advantage of raising aswell as protection.

[ QUOTE ]

3, Just because villian bet doesnt necessarily mean he has a Q.


[/ QUOTE ]
Of course not, but having not PFR and then with 2guys after... He'd have to be aggressive or stupid to bet without a queen. Just my opinion


[ QUOTE ]

If we have a loose/passive read on villian then by all means fold, if we just have a 'very loose table' read i would raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never use table descriptions to apply to players.A passive tablle could easily have a TAG that you then play HU.

just checked, villain rated as maniac but obviously not many hands that is based on. 48 vpip 12 pfr

[POKhER]

neverforget AF When posting PT stats.
WTSD/W$SD helps too...

wtsd 37.5 won 50

af 1.75

again only 25 hands though /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
wtsd 37.5 won 50

af 1.75

again only 25 hands though /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

heres a challenge if you feel comfortable at your current stakes.

Before sitting at a table watch 1 orbit, then sit down and wait for BB. Observe all hands(yes this means single tabling).

Set PA preferences to 40 - 50(I have mine on 50hands). Now you've got to play 50hands with all opponents before getting numbers to help you so you must watch and take notes.

Next time you come to posting, Unless you just sat down or the villan just sat down you should have some notes (and you can dig up PT stats if needs be).

25hands isn't enough for me to considering using stats, 40 is minimum and even then they are very vague.

I played 30hands at 4% VPIP yesturday /images/graemlins/grin.gif

that's a good idea, thanks. once i register PA i also plan to open a bunch of tables and data mine overnight.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

I would raise pre-glop.

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]

3, Just because villian bet doesnt necessarily mean he has a Q.


[/ QUOTE ]
Of course not, but having not PFR and then with 2guys after... He'd have to be aggressive or stupid to bet without a queen. Just my opinion


[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean you're not betting if it's checked to you? Because that sucks.

you mean if it's not checked?

[POKhER]

On the flop? I bet if checked to as i assume no one has a queen...

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
drawless board, what are we protecting against?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a drawless board. JT has an oesd. KT/KJ/J8/T8 all have a gutshot.