Flush draw on the turn... take the free card?

[silly_monkey]

About my tenth hand at the table. UTG seems loose (VP$IP about 40).

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: (11.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Two questions:

Did I make a big mistake by taking the free card on the turn? With 3 callers and the four to a straight board should I bet here? Without the straight I would have bet here for sure, but I confused about what I should do in this case.

Second, should I go for overcalls on the river or raise?

[Holden97]

Am I missing something? You've got the nuts on the river, right? Go ahead and raise.

Other streets, I like your line.

[jaxUp]

you have a flush on the river (ie why didn't you raise?). Also, I like the turn check

[silly_monkey]

[ QUOTE ]
you have a flush on the river (ie why didn't you raise?). Also, I like the turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

I was asking if I should just call hoping to get two overcalls or raise, probably just getting one call.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]

I was asking if I should just call hoping to get two overcalls or raise, probably just getting one call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call, you are at most making 3 SB on the river, and usually just 2. Say an average of 2.25. If you raise, you are making at least 2, plus more when one of the other players can't fold a flush. I'd say you make an average of 3BB when raising this river. A full .75BB than calling it. That is why I would raise the river.

Why 3-bet the flop? Is it a free card 3-bet? I'd probably just call the flop raise and bet the turn if checked to (and call a raise if we are check/raised). On the river, I'd check behind if UI.

As the hand was played, I'd take the free card since we might be check/raised. As for the river, I'd raise. I think this will yield a higher long term expectation.

Frist off I like the check on the turn if that would have been the 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif on the river you would have been done. second maybe im way off base here and confused but I thought the ideal of raising your flush draws was to get a freecard if the turn comes bad and build a pot in case you make you flush. By 3 betting it your not really getting a free card do you really think you aces are good I think your out kicked at best here. as far as the river i would raise here I think your going to get callers and maybe even 3 bet by a king high flush or straight.
Sneakychicken

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
Why 3-bet the flop? Is it a free card 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about a weHaveEquityToPumpAFlushDrawAgainstThreeOpponents kind of 3-bet?

edit: no gutshot, but still enough equity to raise it up. You lose Sklansky bucks for calling this flop raise big time

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why 3-bet the flop? Is it a free card 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about a weHaveEquityToPumpAFlushDrawAgainstThreeOpponents kind of 3-bet?

edit: no gutshot, but still enough equity to raise it up. You lose Sklansky bucks for calling this flop raise big time

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah very good point. I thought about this before I posted, but ya know it's good to ask questions and stuff.

Since we have equity, is it smart to bet out on the turn UI? Does the same principle apply, assuming the flop is not capped?

[jaxUp]

I think we all agree that we are almost certainly behind on the flop. The reason we cap is because we have equity with our flush draw. When the draw does not come in on the turn, our equity drops significantly (like 50%). Hence, we do not have the equity to bet the turn with only three players calling.

This makes sense, thanks for taking the time to explain.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
This makes sense, thanks for taking the time to explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like doing it...keeps me sharp. You don't get 2k+ posts not liking it.

[Sean D]

Your flop equity is huge, so jamming is obvious. Turn is close, because there are still 4 players in, a bet would be close to +EV, but it's close and I would probably puss out and check behind as well. On the river, its a definite raise. Any Jack is calling two cold here.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

Don't go for overcalls on the river. The turn check through makes it look like we have some draws here based on that flop cap, so raise here, since the big draw has come in. Straights will call, and flushes will 3 bet, and we'll make a load of money.

Raise that river. There are [censored] loads of hands that will call two cold and maybe even raise.

The rest is super.

[Jaran]

[ QUOTE ]
...second maybe im way off base here and confused but I thought the ideal of raising your flush draws was to get a freecard if the turn comes bad and build a pot in case you make you flush. By 3 betting it your not really getting a free card do you really think you aces are good I think your out kicked at best here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read Jaxup's responses. This is more about an equity edge with our flushdraw than trying for a free card (which we did get, BTW /images/graemlins/grin.gif )

-Jaran

[David04]

Bet the turn.
Raise the river.

[adsman]

First of all against this many limpers, I raise preflop. I raise for value and I raise to steal the button if possible.

The flop is great.

Here's the reason I really hate your river call. You could not only be up against a Jack, but with that action on the flop and then everyone checking through on the turn I think there's a good chance you're up against another flush. So raise it baby.

[McGahee]

Yeah, if you don't take it you're a fool. Raise da river.

[Stealthy]

*grunch*

I think this is the perfect hand to take the free-card on. With a capped flop there is a real risk of a turn check-raise by any loose Jacks out, 2 pairs or trips.

The river as I think you must already know is a raise every time. Although SSHE talks about going for overcalls this is not the spot to do it. With so many high cards out and the good chance of a straight or even a lower flush being held, then raising could get you called and then 3 bet which puts you in happy street!

As everyone has said, raise the river. In a pot this big whoever is calling for one is likely calling for two (esp. UTG who you know is loose), and if you get really lucky someone will 3bet you with a str8 or smaller flush.