k10o in the sb

[Victor]

button is 30/20 pain in the ass. its seems he has been taking shots at me. it may appear i have been backing down as i have been folding my nothings. i may just be paranoid

button opens and i 3bet k10o in the sb.

flop is j 8 5. i bet, button raises, i call?

turn is a 10. i check and call?

river is an ace. i bet...?

[aba20]

I really liked your line in these tough spots. I don't know if it is right but I would have check raise the turn. You know he will raise your flop bet with any J, 8, 5, straight draw and even sometimes air. So you are likely to be ahead on the turn. Getting three bet really sucks but you might have to pay it off depending on the laggyness of the opponent.

[Surfbullet]

I like a turn c/r as well, given the metagame benefits and the fact that he'll have made a worse calling hand often.

Surf

[Danenania]

Looks good. I'm not keen on a turn c/r. I think it lets him fold worse hands and hurt us with better ones.

Another option if you feel he's going to give your 3-bet no respect and/or probably call down with any A-high is to call PF and go from there. Depends on BB of course.

[baronzeus]

i generally c/c the river...what if he has a hand like Q7 that will bluff the A river but can't call a bet? just give him a chance to bluff one more time...i think he will a lot.

also i dont really like a turn c/r too much, although i do it on occasion against certain situations

[TheMetetron]

I c/r the turn a good percentage of the time, especially if someone is getting out of hand. Check/call isn't bad though.

Given the river, I bet/fold if I c/r the turn or check/call if I check/called the turn.

[TStoneMBD]

not a fan of the river bet. he will often check behind a jack and probably isnt paying off an 8. he definitely isnt folding a jack.

[Danenania]

Yeah you're right I think. Didn't consider him checking behind a Jack. Though you might underestimate how often he pays off with a low pair. People can't fold to river donks.

[Victor]

i never even considered cring the turn. i think he can get away from the garbage easily.

[aba20]

he will probably muck his garbage but I bet you get called down from any 8, 5 and even A-high.

[Victor]

so noone dislikes the flop call?

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
he will probably muck his garbage but I bet you get called down from any 8, 5 and even A-high.

[/ QUOTE ]

i look like a tight weenly little bitch.

when i am in position on some tight guy who seems like he is trying to play well and has been a little poon every time i put pressure on him and he checkraises me on the turn after 3betting, well, i fold my low pairs. i guess i figured everyone was that smart. or maybe im that dumb.

[aba20]

Not in these blind wars. I usually find people calling down with any pair HU no matter what the action is.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
so noone dislikes the flop call?

[/ QUOTE ]

i generally muck the flop... depends on who it is. if i dont think my T is good often enough its not worth fighting over IMO.

[aba20]

[ QUOTE ]
so noone dislikes the flop call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would never fold this flop against this opponent.

Flop call is marginal. You have about 4 outs on average and you're getting 9:1. It's slightly -EV without considering turn and river action.

Once you pair tens on the turn, c/c both turn and river. I don't see much value in the river donk.

[ QUOTE ]
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so noone dislikes the flop call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would never fold this flop against this opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]
Never is a strong word. It's not like he's a maniac or aggressive fish. We're a dog against most of his range.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see much value in the river donk.


[/ QUOTE ]

i doubt he follows thru with is lowever pairs when the ace hits.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see much value in the river donk.


[/ QUOTE ]

i doubt he follows thru with is lowever pairs when the ace hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but is he calling with a hand that you beat here?

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
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I don't see much value in the river donk.


[/ QUOTE ]

i doubt he follows thru with is lowever pairs when the ace hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but is he calling with a hand that you beat here?

[/ QUOTE ]

do people every fold on the river getting 7.5:1 to a gaybet on an obvious scarecard.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I don't see much value in the river donk.


[/ QUOTE ]

i doubt he follows thru with is lowever pairs when the ace hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but is he calling with a hand that you beat here?

[/ QUOTE ]

do people every fold on the river getting 7.5:1 to a gaybet on an obvious scarecard.

[/ QUOTE ]


no

but i still think the flop is a muck...your T has to be good an awful lot to make it worth it to continue.

although you do have 2 bdsd to fall back on,

[Victor]

i always fold the flop here but i was just sick of folding to this guy. i figured getting 10:1 couldnt be a huge mistake.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
i always fold the flop here but i was just sick of folding to this guy. i figured getting 10:1 couldnt be a huge mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah, i agree, it's not a huge mistake at all. i think im weaker on the flop than most 2p2ers in these situations.

by the way, against these aggro guys i think KTo is about a 52:47 favorite, and it's an auto3bet for me, but im beginning to reconsider.

i'm oop, even EV (but have initiative), against a tricky player, with a marginal hand that i generally can't show down unimproved.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
i always fold the flop here but i was just sick of folding to this guy. i figured getting 10:1 couldnt be a huge mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to make marginal flop calls like this against LAGtards. He could have total trash here, or a hand like QT that you are miles ahead of.

[aba20]

[ QUOTE ]
but i still think the flop is a muck...your T has to be good an awful lot to make it worth it to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding these flops to someone who is taking shots at you is very bad poker. Yes mathmatically you may not have odds to draw, but by atleast calling the flop raise you are committing him to bet on the turn (or give you a free card). Even though you are not check raising him this hand you may be in future hands. I think folding on this flop is giving up way to much and agressive observant opponents will continue to take shots at you.

[baronzeus]

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but i still think the flop is a muck...your T has to be good an awful lot to make it worth it to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding these flops to someone who is taking shots at you is very bad poker. Yes mathmatically you may not have odds to draw, but by atleast calling the flop raise you are committing him to bet on the turn (or give you a free card). Even though you are not check raising him this hand you may be in future hands. I think folding on this flop is giving up way to much and agressive observant opponents will continue to take shots at you.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you do on the turn when it bricks?

[aba20]

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what do you do on the turn when it bricks?

[/ QUOTE ]
check fold

[baronzeus]

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[ QUOTE ]
what do you do on the turn when it bricks?

[/ QUOTE ]
check fold

[/ QUOTE ]

that makes this call -EV. he is making you play worse by getting in your head. i figure i will charge him a ton the times when i hit/call down with a pocket pair that i dont need call a flop raise with an over/under combo.


honestly this case is actually very very close because of the likelihood that your T is good and all the backdoor draws.

however, if i had something like K6 this is an easy easy fold on the flop.

[wheelz]

yeah i'll second that. i think you've got to call the flop here, then i'd check/call turn and river. i think the T is good quite often, and you've got backdoor draws baby.

[Spicymoose]

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what do you do on the turn when it bricks?

[/ QUOTE ]
check fold

[/ QUOTE ]

that makes this call -EV. he is making you play worse by getting in your head. i figure i will charge him a ton the times when i hit/call down with a pocket pair that i dont need call a flop raise with an over/under combo.


honestly this case is actually very very close because of the likelihood that your T is good and all the backdoor draws.

however, if i had something like K6 this is an easy easy fold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't like calling the turn if I didn't improve. You definetly don't have odds to draw, and are you calling this river UI /images/graemlins/confused.gif?

I think the flop call is really close EV wise, so our decision to do it or not should depend on metagame. I am not sure what our metagame strategy is though. It seems like folding might be good, as he is already too agro, and folding causes him to take even more shots, and get even more agro. This pulls him even farther away from the optimal bluffing area, but it also might make him a bit more difficult to play against.

[Victor]

first off i thought this hand was interesting bc every street was super questionable. overall i like the way i played it except the flop call. someone mentioned that since he is already raising the flop too light that i should encourage him to continue by folding my marginal hands and calling down with showdownable hands. i like this and i think its something discussed in theory of poker.

i liked my river value bet bc i think he will call with nearly any pair but he is checking behind all but aces and jacks. this wasnt discussed much on the forum tho so im not sure.

anyway, he called with q10o and my hand was good.

[sthief09]

posting blind, so i apologize if this has been said 50 times, but i checkraise that turn. i think you need to punish them by jamming the pot when you have the best of it. he will have a smaller pair or A high plenty