A common situation that is rarely discussed

[scotty34]

Both villains in this hand are awful. The bettor is 60/20/2

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 2 BB

Now this is probably the worst case of the scenarios I'm speaking about. However, in a 3-4 way pot, and you are not last to act, how do you play your weaker hands such as mid or low pair with a weak kicker vs bad players. Do you just concede usually, or are situations such as the above, or maybe slightly better ones, profitable?

[Spicymoose]

I bet the flop. Given that you checked, I dunno what to do. Maybe check raise, maybe fold.

[ctv1116]

I usually just fold. If my opponent is someone who will bet every flop when checked to on the button, I might consider check/raising.

[Catt]

Sometimes I bet the flop; sometimes I C/R; sometimes I C/C and check the turn (raising or folding); sometimes I C/C and lead the turn; sometimes I fold. I think it is rarely discussed because it so often depends on how the table is going, how you're viewed; how you opponents have been reacting to various approaches; etc. It's an unraised pot so you're never really going to have odds to call if you think you're drawing -- it comes down to figuring out if you're best or figuring out the vest line to fold those hands that have 6 or more outs against you.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop. Given that you checked, I dunno what to do. Maybe check raise, maybe fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you still bet given that you KNOW they will call down any pair, and are quite confident they will call with around 60% of their non-pair holdings

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I bet the flop; sometimes I C/R; sometimes I C/C and check the turn (raising or folding); sometimes I C/C and lead the turn; sometimes I fold. I think it is rarely discussed because it so often depends on how the table is going, how you're viewed; how you opponents have been reacting to various approaches; etc. It's an unraised pot so you're never really going to have odds to call if you think you're drawing -- it comes down to figuring out if you're best or figuring out the vest line to fold those hands that have 6 or more outs against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this assessment. I'm also starting to think maybe it should be discussed a little more. Personally, I almost always just give up in these situations, as I did in the OP. However, I think if one were very proficient in dealing with this, it could have a reasonably significant impact on their overall winrate.

[krishanleong]

You have good equity here. As long as you don't fold all the time I think cring, check calling and donking the turn, betting the flop, check calling down can all have merits.

Board: 8h Jd 2c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 52.9946 % 52.90% 00.10% { 5h2d }
Hand 2: 47.0054 % 46.91% 00.10% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KTs-K2s, QTs-Q2s, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K2o, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }


Krishan <font color="white"> If Jason_T mentions pokerstove, he is a turd </font>

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop. Given that you checked, I dunno what to do. Maybe check raise, maybe fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you still bet given that you KNOW they will call down any pair, and are quite confident they will call with around 60% of their non-pair holdings

[/ QUOTE ]

Against these sorts of guys, the profitable approach is valuebet, valuebet, valuebet. You need to approach this as a question of whether betting / calling / raising has value based on their range, the board, and the action. 52o hitting a 2 may seem to be weak, but there very well may be value in leading every street. Just thinner than leading TP, but still value.

[PassiveCaller]

In concept this range is probably correct but I think in practice you'll see a lot more of some of the hands in this range then some of the worst ones you list frequency wise.

Eg (in somewhat order of likelyhood): pairs, Ace High/open ended straight draw, King Highs, gutters

So I think you'll fare worse here then you expect. I wouldn't fold this all the time since you probably will be giving up too much by doing so.

[DMBFan23]

I think this is standard, your folding equity is low on a J high board, especially with an 8 as well - these mid range cards are both more likely to make pairs for your opponents and give them (crappy) draws that they'll see the turn with. even if he has just a 2, or 33, he has you beaten. betting can be correct on Axx, Kxx boards, again players who can fold. but since these opponents do not seem to be that type, you have to play a value game against them as opposed to bluff/semibluffing them.

IMO.

[Guruman]

I only bet or call this if I think I can show it down UI or win without a showdown, since I'm not getting odds to draw to anything.

so, only vs the worst of the weak/tighties or total fish.

Otherwise it seems like a clear chk/fold to me.