5 Card Draw!

[onlinechamp]

I am new to this game 5 Card Draw open to any advice basic hands you want to keep etc. Also what hand usually wins in this game 2 pair good? 3 of kind good?

[thomastem]

Pocket Chickens are the best!

[Al Mirpuri]

I have advised on a similar post. Using search, you will find it by tapping in 'Five Card Draw' using the 'all posts' option.

[Inthacup]

5 card draw is all about deception. Lets say you have 3 of a kind off the deal and raise. When it's time to draw cards, throw away 3 instead of 2. People will never put you on a set. It works every time. It's moves like this that seperate the greats from the good ones.

[onlinechamp]

lol throw away trips?

[KaptainKangoroo]

I remember reading in a book that Ace is a favorite to win the pot every time... Not to sure about that, read it from Super System...

[dux]

Raise and keep big pairs, and whether or not to play a low two pair depends; if there are alot of people in, you are in an uphill battle even if you are infront before the draw. Trips are good, and with a big set, think about keeping 4 cards to try and get people to pay you off on the river - your chances of drawing a full house actually increase, and you probably won't need four of a kind to win.

Of course never draw to a gutshot or heaven forbid a 3 straight or flush, if you have a 4 card draw, get the odds and go for it. You have to mix up your play in draw, so bet a 4 straight or flush on occasion.

This is how I play.

[dink]

wouldn't your odd's stay the same if you kept a kicker when you have trips?
You still have to pair the card you keep and this decreases your chances of getting four of a kind. Of course deception is very important in draw and keeping your kicker is deceptive. I believe it is more important to know your opponents in draw than holdem.

I love full houses, just the other day (in a home game) three of us went to the showdown with many raises (we play unlimited raises) when we put our cards down there were three full houses Qs,Ks, and As. I kept two pair to make Aces full of tens, it was a sweet sweet pot.

Where can you play draw online???

dink /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[dux]

Where can you play draw online???

Paradise Poker and Planet Poker I believe.

wouldn't your odd's stay the same if you kept a kicker when you have trips?

When drawing to two cards, think of the two cards coming one at a time, the first card, and the second card. If your first card is an 8 or a 5, you know you only have two cards, not three left, to complete a full house (because you already threw away one, and unless you are playing with too many players and have to shuffle and redeal the discards, it's not coming back).
If you keep the 8 or 5 in the example, you get a guaranteed 3 card draw.
<pre><font class="small">code:</font><hr>
Drawing to AAA
40/47 * 3/46 + 6/47 * 2/46 = 0.061

Drawing to AAA8 or AAA5
1 * 3/46 = 0.065
</pre><hr>

As you can see dink, you get a whopping 0.004 increased probability of hitting a full house /forums/images/icons/wink.gif. I think my reasoning is correct.

[Vehn]

I wrote this a while back and never really finished it, but someone might get some use out of it.

An introduction to 5 card draw

Preface:
For some reason, the SO decided the other day she'd like to give this poker
thing I've been babbling about for a long time a try. So I (attempted to)
explained the basic rules and strategy for limit hold'em and bought back
into Paradise for the first time in about 9 months. Well as you can imagine
two things happened, a) she played for 15 minutes and found it to be the
most dull thing imaginable and b) I naturally commandeered the account to
fool around with. I decided to give 5CD a try and as a result of my
experiences I thought I would put together this document in my free time
(read: work). This is my first attempt at something like this and its
important to note that I am primarily a mid-limit limit hold'em player and
this guide is written in that perspective.

Game structure:
This guide is based around the structure of 5CD on Paradise Poker:
identical in game structure to a 5-max hold'em table with a big blind equal
to the cost of the first betting round and a small blind half of that. The
betting limit doubles on the second round. No bugs, no opening
requirements, checkraising is allowed.

What you need to realize about 5CD:
I have played plenty of different types of poker, but I have never seen a
form that punishes the poor, loose player more than 5CD. Bad players
literally have no chance if any of their opponents are skilled. This is due
to a few different things. One, which is something you'll constantly need
to remind yourself, is pot odds are almost always too low to chase
with. For example, a tightish player opens UTG for a raise. Its folded
to you in the big blind with KKxxx. You should fold. Implied odds are also
not very good, as very frequently players will fold to a postdraw bet if
they do not improve on their 3 card draw to a pair. This of course means
small pots, and a direct effect of this is a bluff must work very
often for it to be profitable. For example, you get a free play in the big
blind with a small pair versus one limper. You draw 3 and so does he. You
do not improve and are 99% sure you cannot win a showdown. In order for a
bluff to be profitable here it would have to work 45% of the time.
This is generally worse case scenario but it illustrates what you're up
against.

Game selection:
As in all forms of poker game selection is very important in 5CD. However,
since it is so punishing to poor players you really only need one of your
four opponents to be bad in order for it to be worthwhile to play at a
table.

Play before the draw:
5CD is a very positional game especially before the draw and tight play is
essential to winning at it. Right now my basic strategy is to open for a
raise with anything I'm opening with and I don't think its that far off.
Due to the structure of the game and the fact that the blinds are very large
in proportion to the average pot size, the blinds are worth far far more
than most hands other than perhaps trips and better. If someone raises in
front of you muck almost everything and coldcall with nothing. 3-bet or
fold IMO. More on this later.

General minimum opening requirements:
These may be a bit tight (or loose!) but will keep you out of trouble. They
have worked for me.
UTG: AA
CO: KK
Button: QQ
SB: JJ

Drawing hands (1 card draw to a flush or open ended straight) play before
the draw:
Be careful. Usually fold it UTG. If a player limps in front of you you can
usually play it (limp) profitably. If you have it in your big blind, there
is an open raise and no callers, fold. You are getting 3.5:1 on your call
on a 4.25+:1 shot with poor implied odds. Never voluntarily put money in
the pot with an inside straight draw.

Versus limpers:
Tight limpers should generally be avoided. Usually fold JJ even in the
small blind unless the (tight) limper has the propensity to open limp with
draws. AA is playable of course and KK is semiplayable. Usually you will
want to isolate the limper by raising especially with position. Versus
loose limpers add more hands to isolate with but lower than jacks is
probably not profitable.

The draw
Most of the time you will want to discard "true". Draw 3 to a pair, 1 to
two pair, etc. There are specific instances where you will want to draw
deceptively that I'll discuss below, but are rare and should generally be
confined to heads up pots.

After the draw

Stopping bluffs
Since you'll be frequently raising before the draw with many hands you'll
have to defend against bluffs with busted pairs occasionally. As usual pick
your spots well.

Example:
You open raise on the button with AA and only the loose big blind calls and
draws 2 to while you draw 3. You do not improve and he bets into you. What
do you?
Answer:
Call. His most likely hand before the draw is a pair with an ace and trips
are unlikely as he did not reraise before the draw. Since you have two
other aces it greatly reduces the chances he improved. In the actual hand
the big blind showed 88A-rag-rag. You win.







Bluffing and semibluffing
Since your pot odds stink bluffs and semibluffs should be fairly rare.
Generally only do it to the better/tighter players.

Example #1
You are on the button with a flush draw and two tight players in the blind.
What do you?
Answer:
Raise. If you get heads up, bet the river regardless of what you draw.
Your opponent will almost certainly fold a naked pair against your "obvious"
two pair. If both players happen to call you should think about giving up
if you miss on the river.

Example #2
A loose player limps, you raise on the button with QQ, tight blind calls.
Blind draws 3, the limper draws 1 and you draw 3 and do not improve. What
do you do?
Answer:
Bet if checked to. The blind likely has aces or kings (especially if its
the small blind) and may or not have improved - many tight players would not
bet aces or kings up here after the draw. The limper likely has a 1 card
draw to something that missed. You have little chance to win if you check
it down, bet and hope the blind will not risk the call with another player
to act.

Example #3
The aggressive CO open raises and you 3-bet with AA rag rag rag. Both
blinds fold. The CO draws 2. What do you do?
Answer:
Draw 2 and bet if checked to regardless of what you draw. He likely has the
other two aces or kings, but has to be terrified of your pre-draw 3-bet and
draw of 2 and will likely fold better hands than your (worst case) AA no
kickers. Frankly the only hand you should check here is AAKQx.


Playing against someone who draws one
Clearly someone who draws one has one of two different hands, a draw or two
pair. One card draws are much more common than two pair hands and two pair
will often raise before the draw. Frequently you can use that fact to your
advantage and bluff them out with your own busted draw (or very weak pair or
worse from the BB). Be aware however that if you have a strong hand such as
trips you should very often make a "good laydown" if you get popped after
the draw by a 1 carder.

Example:
Two players limp and you raise from the SB with 666. BB calls. You draw 2,
BB and UTG draw 3, CO draws 1. You do not improve and bet. The BB calls,
UTG folds, and the CO raises. What do you do?
Answer:
Fold and its not close. In the actual hand, you folded and the BB called.
The cutoff made his flush and the BB had trip 5s.

Checkraising
Checkraising should be used sparingly but there are certain situations where
its clearly the correct play. Mainly with 1 card draws from the blind after
a tight player showed strength before the draw.

Example:
UTG limps and the CO raises. You call in the BB with a 4 flush which you
make, while UTG draws 3 and the CO draws 2. What do you?
Answer:
Checkraise. The CO likely has trips and will almost certainly bet them when
checked to after the draw.

Betting/raising for value
This a complex subject but in general you should bet aces up and trips for
value all the time. Almost always raise trips for value and occasionally
aces up (player dependant). Against a 1-card-drawer generally just call (or
even fold!). With two smaller pair you should usually check and show the
hand down unless your opponent is fishy enough to frequently call with one
pair, which in this game after the draw is usually nothing more than a
bluff-catcher. Obviously you can make more thin value bets if checked to in
last position but don't go overboard. Also be aware of your image, if you
are thought of as frequently bluffing you can make value bets with small two
pair and even naked aces.

[Inthacup]

Good Grief Vehn. That took some time. You missed an important part though. Make sure to include my section on deception.

[Michael Davis]

That has to be five card stud.

[ramjam]

[gdaily]

There is GREAT action at 24h at their 5-card draw game... Potlimit. Usually 5 tables at the peak hours

regards
Ola

[justus]

I just wish to echo gdaily's post. The game is new at 24h and the action is great. Try a freeroll to get your feet wet.

[fnurt]

In the second example, I believe there are 47 unseen cards, so your calculation should be 3/47 rather than 3/46.

[Sundown]

keep raising and stay pat ie works 99%

[Homer]

Trips are good, and with a big set, think about keeping 4 cards to try and get people to pay you off on the river - your chances of drawing a full house actually increase, and you probably won't need four of a kind to win.

A) Keeping 3 cards

P(boat or quads) = 1 - [(46/47)*(42/46)] = 10.64%

B) Keeping 4 cards

P(boat or quads) = 4/47 = 8.5%

What am I missing?

-- Homer

[thomastem]

ROFLLMAO

[thomastem]

pokerroom.com

[Gotmilk]

he meant it tongue in cheek homer...you are of course less likely to make quads and that costs you a big percentage, but if you draw one card you are slightly more likely to make a full house because of the possibility of catching one of the cards you pitched when you draw two.

[Homer]

Hmmm, I didn't think he meant it tounge-in-cheek.

-- Homer

[dink]

sorry but I can't find draw poker there
hold em and omaha etc but no draw poker

dink /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[Al Mirpuri]

It can't be 5stud because Doyle does not pontificate about 5stud in Supersystem. Though, an Ace would be good nearly all the time in short-handed 5stud and usually at a full table.

[Al Mirpuri]

I'm not a mathematician but most tables published on Draw odds, including those published by Mike Caro, show that drawing one to trips increases the likelihood of a boat but makes quads less likely.

Keeping the kicker gets you action post draw from players who make trips. As you have high trips you welcome this. A maniac will give you excessive action whilst holding high two pairs as a predraw raise and draw of one card has to be read as two pairs by most players. The only downside is that very, very, very, very, very, rarely someone may make a hand that it would have taken quads to beat but this is so rare that taking one card to trips is a positive expectation play.

[Homer]

I'm not a mathematician but most tables published on Draw odds, including those published by Mike Caro, show that drawing one to trips increases the likelihood of a boat but makes quads less likely.

Ahhh, I get it now. I thought what was being said was that the odds of improving (be it to a boat or quads) is greater when drawing only one card.

-- Homer

[dux]

No no, I was just saying on the side the chances of getting a boat was bigger, not improving - as you worked out. I'll have to get out my abacus though, I didn't realise probability of improving was so reduced.