Am I a Donkey?

[SirFWALGMan]

I have just started playing PL08 and have a real hard time deciding if a draw is worth putting my money in or not. Here is a hand as an example. I am on the button and I have 2345. So I limp. The flop comes A5K. A player I know is good pushes in for $50. He has about $300. I have $100. I decide I have around 12 outs to win it all and 12 to split the pot. The probable hand I am up against is obviously AA or KK. I guess if I really thought this through I could have been up against something like AA23 which could have sucked. However I firmly though the guy had a set and did not want to split if a low hit.

So anyway, instead of just calling I decide to push and see what happens. The turn is a ten and the river is a 4. He had KK with no low draw and I end up scooping a huge pot. Is this the right kind of move to do or am I better off waiting for a made hand? How many outs is enough?

[Wolffink]

Is this pot limit? How can he push all-in for $50 on the flop? If you're just starting 08, why are you playing so high? What was the preflop action? Did he re-raise the pot? Or re-re-raise? Then, yes, you can put him on Aces.

Otherwise, you have a good hand. Normally it should be played. We have to look at the range of hands your opponent might have:

I went to cardplayer.com and typed in your hands, disregarding flushes. If you give him two aces and say a 6 and a jack (a pretty sucky two ace hand), you are favored on the flop by 54% to 46%. Give him a 3 with a backdoor flush draw and you still are favored by 51% to 49%.

Give him AA23 both suited (for runner-runner flushes) and you are 33% to 67% dog.

Give him KKJT (unsuited) and , interestingly, you are 53% to 47% favorite.

Since you are a favorite unless he has the dream hand AA23 suited for the flop, you should call on the flop. Going all-in is a mistake (but perhaps not if you're short-stacked, if you had more money it would be). If the board pairs high on the turn, you can fold.

[SirFWALGMan]

Ya know, I am reading this hand and I have no idea how it got so high so fast. It was a 1/2 PL08 hand. I think there were a couple of limpers. I guess one of them bet out on the flop letting the other person put $50 in. I was short stacked with $100. I guess it did not make sense to me to just call. Everyone else had folded to his huge bet by the time it came back around to me so I know I was HU when I made my decision to push.

Usually I play .50/1 PL08. Mostly because .25/.50 is annoying and I do not seem to do well at it. As to why I was playing 1/2.. ummm.. errr.. *TILT*. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[SirFWALGMan]

Hey thanks for the link to Card Players O8 odds calculator. That is a nifty tool. Here is my thinking on the hand after running it through the calculator:

Amazing. Check this stat out. I went to Cardplayer.com. Make sure you check the O8 button.

Him
[kskc6djh]
me
[2c3h4s5d]

Pre-flop equity:

Him: 63% on the high, 0% on the low.
Me: 37% on the high, 58% on the low.

Total:

Him: 36%
Me: 37%

So even pre-flop, with out anything, I am favored to win this pot against the guy. This totally blows my mind. I would never have guessed pocket pairs were so bad when they have nothing backing them up.

Now lets go to the interesting part. Where I put all my money in. The flop.

Him: 67% on the High, 0% on the low.
Me: 33% on the High, 74% on the low.

Total:

Him: 25%
Me: 33%

I am dominating him when ALL the money goes in. It again blows my mind. Ok, I am not soooooooo far ahead that I could not lose it all but it seems to be not a donkey move by far.

Now the next card is a ten, but I have already committed myself. I am now a 23% to 50% dog. If I had just called the right move might be folding here. However since I already pushed this card is a moot point.

Then we hit the BINGO card, the river is my lovely 4! WOO HOO! Me: 100%. Thank you. So I guess the lesson to me on this is A) Learn the odds on Omaha-8 a little more, and B) NEVER play a hand that does not have a decent chance to scoop. The fact that his hand had no way to win except the high and hitting the K on the flop makes it a bad hand for him to push in on even though he is ahead on the flop.

[benwood]

We all have a little bit of donkey in us,my friend.

[Wolffink]

Sirfwalgman, Why is .25/.50 annoying --more annoying than .50/$1 ?

I fooled around with the 08 card hand evaluator at cardplayer.com to figure out how good AA** type of hands were against various other hands head-to-head.

But now I don't try a big reraise with them, as I think it gives AA away--so my games dont get head-to-head with them. Good news is that if the flop is unfriendly, I can just fold them. And since Berman in SS2 says average players lose a lot of money on AA** hands in Pot Limit Omaha High, it's gotta to be even worse in Omaha hi-low.

If your opponent put in big re-raises preflop just with kings in your game, he's an idiot--and would be badly dominated if someone had Aces. Good to note for the next time you have Aces--maybe he'll put in a big re-raise and you can get most of your chips in.