check/call check/call check/raise the river

[cardcounter0]

You know the scenario. You flop TPTK.
Table full of fish check around, you bet, they call.
Nothing on the turn.
Table full of fish check around, you bet, they call.
Nothing on the river.
Table full of fish check around, you bet ---
Fish all fold, except one of the check/call fish RAISES.

Do you make the crying call? How often do you give the fish an extra bet?

I have found more often than not, that river check raise means:
His stupid little pocket pair became trips on the river.
That river card gave him two pair of whatever random crap he is playing.
The gut shot straight just hit.
Runner-Runner flush just occured.

It almost never means:
Maybe his bottom pair, 9 kicker is goot.

It also means you are playing against a slightly smarter fish, pulling the river check raise, because usually the check/caller chaser all of a sudden bets out -- the donk bet, I believe, when they do hit. Like they are afraid all of a sudden you aren't going to bet your hand like you have been doing on every other street, and might check it down, and they just HAVE to get that bet in.

How often do you pay off the suck out fish?

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]

It also means you are playing against a slightly smarter fish, pulling the river check raise, because usually the check/caller chaser all of a sudden bets out -- the donk bet, I believe, when they do hit. Like they are afraid all of a sudden you aren't going to bet your hand like you have been doing on every other street, and might check it down, and they just HAVE to get that bet in.

How often do you pay off the suck out fish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a read it's usually best to fold here. You will very seldom see a bluff, especially assuming that by "fish" you mean "loose-passive". Also, I think donk bet fish are right on par with c/r fish. A lot of players will check that river through, and a donk bet would be a good idea against many other players. I would say that donk bet fish tend to be more weak and c/r fish are slightly more aggressive types.

At the Party .25/.50 tables I've seen cases where someone will do this with TP and a weak kicker so short of reads and depending on how scary the board is I'll make the crying call. I think I'm ahead doing it but I might just be remembering the times I won and forgetting the times I got rivered...

[cold_cash]

How big is the pot?

[Obliky]

[ QUOTE ]
How big is the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. This is all dependent on the pot size.

In the scenario descibed in the OP i say call..as the pot must be huge at this point. (thats if 'table of fish' is like > 6 or so)

[cardcounter0]

So if the pot is really big, you go ahead and donate one more bet to it so the passive player who just checked raised you on the river wins a big pot + 1. Interesting.

Since a player is check/calling all the way, he is obviously chasing something, or has something, and the check/raise means he didn't miss (these are passive players, not "tricky" ones).

The check/raise on the river by a passive player means, "I know you have Top Pair, and I have you beat".

I think the number of times that a passive player has checked raised me on the river and didn't have at least TPGK beat would mean the pot would have to have at least $50 in it to be profitable to call in a .5/$1.00 game.

So I think it is safe to say, I am going to fold.

[cardcounter0]

Yes, keep track of this.

Also, are you including players that are trying to "pull a move"? They have top pair, know you have it, and think maybe they can surprise check raise and bluff you off your hand. I am not talking about aggressive players, or LAGS, or bluff happy donks.

I am talking about the table full of passive habitual "check/callers". If one of those check/raises on the river (rather than just becoming the aggessor and betting into you on the river) 99 out of 100 times you are beat.

[ QUOTE ]
At the Party .25/.50 tables I've seen cases where someone will do this with TP and a weak kicker so short of reads and depending on how scary the board is I'll make the crying call. I think I'm ahead doing it but I might just be remembering the times I won and forgetting the times I got rivered...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

This is not an uncommon way to play TP weak kicker at many limits. The idea is to lose the least but not let the aggressor check thru at the river (in case they don't have TP). If raised after the donk bet, they would fold.

[DerFleischmeister]

This might be incredibly weak on my part, but most of the time in this scenario (3 or more c/c'ing fish, when I have position), if I still only have TPGK on the river, checked around to me, I check it through as well. Not only have I saved myself a nasty fish c/r, I save myself the fish c/c with a hand that happens to beat mine. Had one fish on a Vegas 3/6 table earlier this week c/c my TPTK bets the whole way...with a flopped SET.

[Abbaddabba]

You'd be a fool to fold the river for one more bet with TPTK in what sounds ilke it would be a large pot against what may very often be erratic players.

Save your brilliant laydowns when you're heads up against someone you have detailed stats against.


At the same time, you're an equally big fool to not value bet TPTK into a sea of low limit hold em players the turn/river were blanks.

You miss out on a bet far more often than you save a bet. The outcome of the hand has already been decided. Checking through wont make their winning hand disappear. Since it isnt heads up, conventional percentages (ie: 66% certainty if you think you get check/raises from all better hands) dont apply. For one, they dont checkraise all better hands. Secondly, you get calls from several hands.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
This might be incredibly weak on my part, but most of the time in this scenario (3 or more c/c'ing fish, when I have position), if I still only have TPGK on the river, checked around to me, I check it through as well. Not only have I saved myself a nasty fish c/r, I save myself the fish c/c with a hand that happens to beat mine. Had one fish on a Vegas 3/6 table earlier this week c/c my TPTK bets the whole way...with a flopped SET.

[/ QUOTE ]

People online bluff more than in B&M's generally. Also if you bet into 3 people on the river and only win 30% of the time, you win money assuming your opponents are passive enough that they bluff rarely and you don't feel you have to pay off a raise.

EDIT: Well, that's not entirely true, they won't all always call, but the point remains that in fishy B&M's with 6-handed pots it's not uncommon to bet TPTK or an overpair into six people, get called in three places and still win. And yes, I play B&M more than online.

[cardcounter0]

I think you are correct in live B&M, TPGK is pretty useless unimproved when it is 6 to the flop, 3 to the river. Check it thru on the river.

Online low limit - the players are so bad, it is still worth betting the river when checked around to you. But I don't think the odds are there to crying call if you get a passive fish waking up and check/raising.

[cardcounter0]

I think you need to re-read the post. I do bet every street with TPTK. And I do bet the river. And since all the fish folded to the single check raiser, I don't get calls from several hands. So I don't know what situation you are talking about that I am playing so foolish.

You might read the post by jaxup in this thread, he seems to have the right idea.

Grunch:

You neglect to mention pot size in this hypothetical, but it sounds big. How often do you expect us to win? 1 out of ten times? 1 out of 30? The answer tells us what we should do.

[nomadtla]

I wish I folded more in this situation. We all hear the Gospel of not folding for one bet in a big pot. But there is a difference between a bet and a c/r. Yeah it still costs us the same but the meaning of the move from the fish's perspective is different. I will still value bet TPGK every time last to act on this river. But I'm begining to see more and more that calling that c/r is a leak. "I just want to see what they have." Most of them will play it the same regardless of who they're against so let some other fish call down that c/r and get a read. Some will do this with TPWK, hell I've done it a time or 2 against a player who can find the fold button. I think folding every time here is a crime, because it begs people to take shots at you. But I think calling down every time is a leak too. Find the players who are more likely to do this with weaker hands and call them down so the table see's they can't bully you with that play. But when a player who rarely ever c/r's and is not aggresive on any street except with the goods, I think even in a big pot this is a reasonable laydown. This comes down to reads more then size of the pot to me. Shillix said it one time in some post I can't remember and I will paraphrase it here. If someone walks by and puts a million dollars in a pot your playing at .5/1 and a player raises you on the river and your certain you are beat you are still wasing that dollar if you call, not "making a good call in a big pot".

[cardcounter0]

Thank You. My point exactly. Say you raise preflop. What do the fish put you on? AA? AK? Say an ace hits the flop, okay they say, you don't have AA, you must AK. And then they proceed to check/call and chase whatever it is that chasers chase.

Now when a passive player like that check raises you on the river, he is saying "I know you have Top Pair Top Kicker, and I have that hand beat" If you call his check raise and you do indeed have TPTK, then you are throwing your money away.

If a player were to actually show you his cards and he has a better hand, do you really need to do a pot odds/pot size calculation to call the river raise?

[cardcounter0]

1 out of 50. Now figure out how the pot gets big enough to justify a call of river c/r when it has been checked around and just called to you on every street.

Of course the sooner you get reads on players, the sooner you can make calls and folds, even when you don't have mathematical justification for it *gasp*. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

The sooner you get out multi-table low limit hell.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
I will still value bet TPGK every time last to act on this river. But I'm begining to see more and more that calling that c/r is a leak...I think folding every time here is a crime, because it begs people to take shots at you. But I think calling down every time is a leak too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cut down to the best parts, as this is the best post in this thread I think.

People not wanting to value bet on the river here because of a potential c/r remind me of people who say that they don't raise TT preflop because it makes them overplay it after the flop; people fixing a leak with a leak.

[McGahee]

Without reading any responses - I'm sure most people will villify you for generalizing too much, maybe rightfully so. The fact of the matter is though, the river does usually make their hand when they C/R and people make too many crying calls IMO.

i almost always just call it (i accept that its incorrect and a leak of mine), for metagame as much as anything else, although pot size is also very important, ie am i good 1 in X times here? for metagame though, if i see anyone fold to a couple of river checkraises i will be pulling plays on them all session. i actually dont find it happening to me too much though

i think when deciding whether to check it through (and sorry for being so basic here but its how i think about it) is to just give the vil or vils a hand range/s and how much the comparitive mistake will be...

lets say there are 2 fish, and a flush comes on the river.

and lets say the fish are identical and each has a 50% chance of having MP/TPBK or having a flush draw.

that means
a) 1 in 4 times they are both paying you off
b) 1 in 2 times one is checkraising
c) 1 in 4 times both are checkraising

so when you bet with the intention of calling 1 back but not 2:

you win 2 once, lose 2 twice and lose 1 once for an overall ev of -3BB... so it would be better to check it through

of course in game its never this simple and most rivers should be value bet but thats just a basic way of thinking about it.

[siccjay]

[ QUOTE ]

So I think it is safe to say, I am going to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have it all figured out, why did you ask?

[cardcounter0]

[ QUOTE ]
How often do you pay off the suck out fish?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you didn't realize that the last line of the OP, the one ending with the question mark, was the question.

[siccjay]

So you made this post to show off your superior pokar play? Awesome.

[cardcounter0]

No, I asked a question. Sorry if you are offended.

[cardcounter0]

A very nice analysis. Good post. But I am not questioning value betting the river. I think you do value bet the river. But when a check/caller calling station doesn't just call your value bet, but instead puts in a check/raise, do you call make the crying call?

To me it shows the player has jumped a level in the meta-game. Instead of "hey I have a hand, therefore I bet" he is taking into consideration your actions and knows you are going to bet your hand and can get another bet in by check/raising.

A player thinking at that level can also put you on a hand, TPTK, and will raise if he has that hand beat. Pretty basic, not a river bluffer.

Of course, you can't fold every time a fool thinks he has you beat and pulls a check raise, but I am thinking given your read on how passive the player is, it is a very low percentage of crying calls.

With some players, who I have seen only raise with the absolute nuts, you would never make a crying call. But that is just me. I guess some people would still call if the pot was *really* large.

maybe stick a few examples up, the discussion has been pretty good.

like i said i would probably fold to a river checkraise ~1/10 times but it is probably a leak of mine

[Spota]

This same situation has happened to me several times. (Im sure more but I remember the last two). The last two times I was c\r on the river, on a bluff. (This was at 1\2) I dropped a F-Bomb and clicked the call button expecting to lose. When the chips slid my way I was shocked and made some quick notes on the villan.

[nomadtla]

There are some players I never call. Some I allways call (if I see something like Spota posted happening regularly from them). Then there is the middle range, which I usually divide up as so bassed on my assesment of how they play.

I roll a 6 sided die and if the following # or #'s come up I call.
Straight Up (ABC poker): 1
Deceptive (top quality TAGS and Lags): 1, 2
FPSer's (not a deceptive player but one who seems to at least pay attention and take shots, usually in an obvious manner, a lot of TC's fall here): 1, 2, 3 (as these are the ones I want to get the lesson, and the fish at the table see them as the good ones cause they make fancy plays and are more likely to notice the guy who won't be bullied by them)

These dice rolls are arbitrary when I have no other clue and it's HU. I don't use them offten but I think it randomizes and keeps me away from calling to offten. Though as I said in my earlier post in this thread I offten want to call them down and to my better judgement abandon the dice.
But it's a good idea in theory and works well when I'm not tilting away chips.