Question about PFR to auto-flop bet

[BatsShadow]

I was reading this great post about Personal Note Taking (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4003401&an=0&page=0# Post4003401) and had a chain of thoughts (see my reply to him) which led to a question:

The standard idea is if you raise preflop and miss the flop, against 1 or 2 opponents, you should always or almost always bet. But lately, I've been getting the feeling that this bet isn't getting much respect. Is there a time not to do this? Am I doing this too much by doing it every time?

I'm imagining that this really comes down to reads and you should just not bet into people who never fold, and that position comes into it as well.

Does anyone have any sample hands where you PFR'd and then did or did not check on the flop for a very specific reason? Any other thoughts would also be appreciated.

[POKhER]

Whats villans Foldflop%?
How many outs do i have?
May my hand be best?
Whats the texture of board(Ragged? Rainbow? High cards/Connected/suited?)
Have i raised much during this session?

All considerations before betting the flop.

If its more than 2 villans i probably wont be out, but if they both fold flop lots i may.

If checked to, then yeah i'd bet... but i assume we're "FIRST IN".

[jrz1972]

Against 1 or 2 opponents, it's almost always right to make a continuation bet. It's hard for any hand to hit a random flop, so if you were ahead preflop, there's a good chance you're ahead post-flop.

This is especially true against one opponent. I can't conceive of a board I wouldn't bet if I raised PF and got it HU. Obviously you're betting ragged flops, but even if you raised with

A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

and got a

T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

board, your opponent often has nothing and that board looks just as scary to him as it does to you. You might check a board like that against two opponents, but I'd still fire at it against one.

This is an interesting question.
If you raise in early position pre flop, and then check with 2 callers behind me, one of them is going to bet. Then what's the plan? If you're going to call that bet you might as well bet out to begin with no?

[Abbaddabba]

Uhm, not really.

Better hands will often raise, and worse hands will almost never fold. Plus there's always a chance that a better hand will check through.

If there are two callers and im OOP, i dont make continuation bets. On the other hand, if they're in the blinds and im in position, i will.

If both people call your flop bet when you're in position on a draw-lite board, you can be pretty sure that one has a pair that they're going to show down. Consequently, you can check behind on the turn and get a free card. If you're out of position, if you bet the flop and get two callers, and check the turn, someone behind you will almost always bet.

[jaxUp]

This is very dependent on board texture and your opponents. Against 2 opponents, your flop bet only has to take it down 1/6 times to be profitable. In most situations this is the case. Also, on a board like 923, where you have a hand like AJ-AK, you often actually have the best hand here. Betting into 2 opponents and getting a caller (though scary) is not really a bad thing. Many players here will peel with OCs and fold to a turn bet.

I've seen this a lot at the .25/.50 Party tables. PFR with AK, board is raggy and it seems the callers don't figure it out until they've called my continuation bet and I lead out again on the turn. Of course reads will help here but if I don't get pushed back on pre-flop I will lead out or raise any bet on the flop if I raised PF.

[BatsShadow]

The 1/6 number puts things into perspective. So it looks like I am doing the right thing and I'm just second guessing because I'm running bad this week.

I agree with the above posters. To condense, these are the things that matter, in no particular order:

1: Your hand. Strength of overcards, board texture, backdoor straight/flush draws, etc.

2: Opponent's tendencies: What VPIP/fold to flop bet % do they have? What is their agg factor?

3: Position: Being OOP is bad, betting behind checks leaves you open to a CR. Position on later betting rounds matters as well if you improve/don't improve.

Hope these help.

I almost always make a continuation bet against 1 or 2 opponents but if I find I'm not getting enough respect I try to change gears and c/r the flop more and if I feel they're taking shots at me I fire back with the occasional 3 bet if they can fold to it or fold to a turn bet.

[@bsolute_luck]

just 2 short thoughts for me:

1. position
2. # of people in the hand

i auto-bet most flops if i have position and/or if i have a few people in the hand. plus betting A-high is not spewing even on a scary board as you still could have the best hand. you don't want to allow draws free cards. you'd be surprised how often aggression wins even in limit hold 'em.

[BatsShadow]

I like this suggestion about the occassional check raise. This thread has been helpful for me. Thanks everyone.