a hand i misplayed but still interesting

[TStoneMBD]

4 handed game

SB openraises, I 3bet K9o in the BB, SB calls.

Flop is T46r

I bet SB checkraises I call

Turn is a 9

SB bets, I raise, SB calls

River is an 8

SB checks, I check

sb in the game seems to be a winning player but hes a bit passive. he likes to checkcall alot and i dont think he would be openraising from the SB with alot of hands. in the past he would complete from the SB with his hand every orbit and i would raise any 2 from the BB every time. sometimes he would fold but usually call. he never limpreraised. i found it funny. he doesnt seem to adjust properly.

i didnt bet the river because i felt he had a ten. i get the feeling he would often checkcall the flop with a pair under tens here. if thats the case then i should have just folded the flop. i also shouldnt have raised the turn if im not going to bet the river becuase i might get blown off a 5 outter and i have no folding equity.

my image at this table is probably runoverable. ive shown alot of strength and have folded to alot of postflop raises because i started catching alot of great preflop hands but missing every board. he might be taking advantage of my image but he doesnt seem like the type to do that. we also have quite a bit of history together and id imagine his impression of me is that he finds me highly aggressive and capable of alot of weird stuff. if he pays attention to my play in the past i liberally 3bet sb openraises. the turn raise has alot of metagame strength especially since we play together frequently but i still think its a mistake if im not betting this river.

i think my line is just inconsistent and bad and that i botched this hand up but i think there is some good room for discussion here.

[etizzle]

if he is this passive then i like just calling the turn, bettin the river if checked to and folding if he bets again. The way you played it i like checking the river.

despite what you say he's probably still c/r with any pair, and i think your line is ok.

[krishanleong]

Fold the flop. Otherwise I think you have to play it the way you did.

If there was some sort of draw on the flop, that might exuse the turn raise + river check.

Krishan

[jt1]

after calling the check raise, you played it exactly as I would have.

The only room for discussion i can find is, 'what odds you need to call with 2 overcards to the middle card when facing a check raise HU?' I'd say about 11-1 if you have a backdoor draw.

[TStoneMBD]

the thing is im playing in a game where metagame matters.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is im playing in a game where metagame matters.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not pretending I'm as good as you. Just you have the only two new posts on the forum right now.

[TStoneMBD]

did my post come off as condescending? that wasnt my intention at all, im confused.

[ArturiusX]

Why not just call the turn?

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
i also shouldnt have raised the turn if im not going to bet the river becuase i might get blown off a 5 outter and i have no folding equity.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a nice little nugget. Let me ask you a question, though. Why are you playing metagame with a guy who "doesn't seem to adust properly"?

[TStoneMBD]

id like to think that he doesnt adjust properly because i do a good job of mixing up my play and keeping people off guard while trying not to make -ev plays or significantly -ev plays. if i started playing predictable abc poker then im sure he would start to adjust properly. him playing timid is probably a part of his natural tendencies but it also probably has something to do with me keeping him off guard. i think when youre up against an aggressive player who keeps you off guard its important to keep him off guard by playing back at him sometimes and sometimes playing passively to get to showdown cheaply. if you are playing a predictable style of poker against this type of player it nullifies his disadvantage because he wont spew chips against you because hes never in an uncomfortable situation. because this player is the type to adapt to an aggressive and unpredictable player by playing timidly, i think that gives me a distinct advantage and i need to maintain that advantage by continuing to play unpredictably especially when it doesnt sacrifice equity.

because i make turn raises like this the SB and other players at the table cant fold to my turn raises with comfort when theyre holding pairs. that gives me a good edge. against the SB, if he raised the turn like this against me i would be able to comfortably fold alot more hands then him because hes more predictable then i am. he makes up for being predictable however by not spewing whereas i sometimes catch myself donating chips to someone.

still though, the turn raise is bad.

[Surfbullet]

when i first read the hand i thought "duh, bet the river." Then the whole thing about him being passive and never openraising, etc. Hm. That's def weird. My thought is this: you have rarely seen him openraise, now when he c/r's you it is supposed to be a T? If we expect him to be raising premium hands (if that assumption can be made) then i'd say that his holding is likely not a T, and may often be one of those "slowplayed AK checkraises" we love so much from passive players.

I'd bet the river. If i didn't, i'd go back in time and fold the flop.

Surf

Edit: too late to be thinking.

[Subfallen]

Good hand post (though I don't like preflop.) But I have a question.

Say we're SB with QT. You raise us on the turn. Best line?

I ask because I feel like I miss value on the river out of position against tough players. I want to start using a call/gaybet combo more often.

But I'm afraid of getting raised again. /images/graemlins/frown.gif Could I fold QT to another raise on this river?

On the other hand, 3-betting the turn never folds a better hand and exposes us to a cap which we have to call.

This is an interesting spot.

[Spicymoose]

I don't get why everyone is saying fold the flop. I guess if you are saying he wouldn't check raise with middle or bottom pair, then yeah, fold the flop, but it is my experience that tons of people do check raise these, even if they are passive. You are getting 9:1, so need about 4 outs, which with 3 kings, and 3 weak 9s, I think you can call. Plus, if you fold the flop, that is extremely weak, and you can expect this guy to be taking even more shots at you. Since he is passive, you want to make him more passive, not more agressive.

Normally I raise the turn and bet the river, but I guess if you think he is really passive, you can call both. You are right that raising the turn and then checking the river is pretty inconsistant.

[mperich]

I don;t get what you are freeshowdowning against here. I fold the flop or if I got to the river like this I would bet it, for value, and metagame purposes.

-Mike