Horrible board, massive pot

Table is full of standard 30 – 40vpip type players, no one unusually aggressive or anything.

Hero is MP with Jc Jd.
UTG limps, EP limps, Hero Raises, MP+1 cc’s, MP+2 reraises, BB calls, all call (18 SB’s)
Flop: 6c 7d 8d. UTG checks, EP bets, hero raises, ALL CC! (36SB’s)

Turn: 2c. checked to hero who bets, 4 callers (23BB’s)

River: 4h (Yuk!) EP Bets, hero… (looks very nervously at the 2 people still to play)

edit: actually I don't know why I'm asking what to do cos it's pretty bleeding obvious that hero has to call here.

Hero calls, MP+ 1 raises (sigh), 2 folds, EP calls, hero... calls and hates himself?

[spydog]

Cap preflop.

Call the river. If it is 2 bets back to you then fold. Otherwise, I still call 1 more in this pot.

[mute]

First off you should cap PF. JJ has a HUGE equity edge against 5 loose opponents.

I'm folding to the river raise. I think you are good here never.

[WriterBoy]

Cap those jacks preflop, and then whitewater that all the way down to the river. With a pot that large, you are making a mistake by folding, even if you think/know you're behind.

[ QUOTE ]
First off you should cap PF. JJ has a HUGE equity edge against 5 loose opponents.

I'm folding to the river raise. I think you are good here never.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cap it next time - fair enough.

You would be very surprised (as I was) with what both players were holding

You cannot fold in the river with this big pot!!!!!!!

[shant]

I know that's what they say, but how often are you good here? Is MP1 bluffraising a bet and a call on the river with A8? Also, what's the other guy waking up with?

Unbelievably this pot was not won by a straight but 2 pair. Hero gritted his teeth and called MP+1's raise who showed 9h Qh, a total bluff, and EP showed 8 7 for a badly played 2 pair.
I guess this hand kind of shows that paying off in large pots is vital because 'our hand is good never' is actually 'our hand is good a tiny percentage of the time' as MP+1 showed.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
Unbelievably this pot was not won by a straight but 2 pair. Hero gritted his teeth and called MP+1's raise who showed 9h Qh, a total bluff, and EP showed 8 7 for a badly played 2 pair.
I guess this hand kind of shows that paying off in large pots is vital because 'our hand is good never' is actually 'our hand is good a tiny percentage of the time' as MP+1 showed.

[/ QUOTE ]
He showed a total bluff, but you still have to beat the player who woke up and bet the river and called a raise. That's a big parlay.

[ QUOTE ]
First off you should cap PF. JJ has a HUGE equity edge against 5 loose opponents.

I'm folding to the river raise. I think you are good here never.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might just point out that SSH hand charts only recommend 4 betting AA-QQ and AKs, whether loose or tight...

[mute]

[ QUOTE ]

I might just point out that SSH hand charts only recommend 4 betting AA-QQ and AKs, whether loose or tight...

[/ QUOTE ]

A chart can't take every possible scenario into consideration. I think most charts are only discussing your first action, so if you're faced with a 3-bet without having acted yet, it's telling you to fold (this may or may not be correct depending on who is doing the raising, and whether there are coldcallers or not. I'm probably still capping JJ and AKo most of the time against a standard Party lineup).

This situation is vastly different, though. You got five opponents, who are all loose. If you win the 1 out 6 times you are breaking even on your cap. I think you will do much better than that against this lineup.

[yellowjack]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap preflop.

Call the river. If it is 2 bets back to you then fold. Otherwise, I still call 1 more in this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sums it up well. We're capping because it's 6-way. If it were HU or 3-way, we might not cap.

[ QUOTE ]
Unbelievably this pot was not won by a straight but 2 pair. Hero gritted his teeth and called MP+1's raise who showed 9h Qh, a total bluff, and EP showed 8 7 for a badly played 2 pair.
I guess this hand kind of shows that paying off in large pots is vital because 'our hand is good never' is actually 'our hand is good a tiny percentage of the time' as MP+1 showed.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may not have been a bluff; that moron might have actually thought his 9 made a straight.

[matt hooley]

getting 28-1 to close the river action I think it would be bad to fold to the raise. you will kick yourself the 4% of the time your hand is good.
if 4% is what is refered to by many posters as "like never" then situations like these are losing you money.

[mute]

[ QUOTE ]
getting 28-1 to close the river action I think it would be bad to fold to the raise. you will kick yourself the 4% of the time your hand is good.
if 4% is what is refered to by many posters as "like never" then situations like these are losing you money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, if we were good here 4% of the time, then folding would cost us .16 BB if we were getting 28:1 (the pot is actually a bit smaller than this, if I counted correctly, but nevermind that). If we are good here 3% of the time we lose .13 BB by calling. So you are not losing a lot by making the wrong decision. I think, we are good here less than 3%, but who can really say?

[ceskylev]

[ QUOTE ]

I might just point out that SSH hand charts only recommend 4 betting AA-QQ and AKs, whether loose or tight...

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I think that's only when you're faced w/ three cold. It says vs. a raise and a reraise. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

2) There's only one player showing strength. Even if you're behind the 3-bettor, you want to get the other donks' money in, no?

3) Eventually, you should be doing a lot of things that the SSHE chart doesn't tell you to do. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
3) Eventually, you should be doing a lot of things that the SSHE chart doesn't tell you to do. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly agree, sometimes capping and sometimes not is a cool idea IMO - keep em guessing

This is a response from Ed Miller on this hand. Let us all be educated:

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't raise the flop. I'd just call, waiting for the turn to raise. The reason I wouldn't raise immediately is exactly what happened: everyone cold-calls (with you having a small-at-best (and likely no) equity advantage because so many cards can beat you), and then everyone calls your bet on the turn. You're better off skipping the flop raise and then putting in the extra bet on the turn when that beautiful card comes.

Having said that, on the river you call the first bet and probably fold to the raise. But obviously you don't fold to the raise if the raiser does weird things.

[/ QUOTE ]