Flush draw, huge growing pot.

[Buccaneer]

Please, no need to comment on my preflop play.

I am interested in my post flop play. Your normal party/empire mix at this level.

I am drawing to the nut flush on the turn. I know my aces are no good and that I am up agains atleast one made hand. I have odds and outs to the flush, straight and trips and think I must play this one to the river. Do you agree or disagree?

River is folded when beat.

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8.00 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (11.00 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (31.00 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, CO calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 47.00 BB.
Results in white below:<font color="#FFFFFF">
MP3 has Jc Kh (a straight, ten to ace.)
CO has 9s Js (a straight, ten to ace.)
UTG+1 has Jh Qc (a straight, ten to ace.)
MP2 has 7d Jd (a straight, ten to ace.)
MP3 wins 11.50 BB.
CO wins 11.50 BB.
UTG+1 wins 11.50 BB.
MP2 wins 11.50 BB.
</font>

Wow having to cold-call 4 bets on the turn! The pot is huge, you are getting over 5:1 plus good implied odds, I would make the call. I'd be real concerned if I made my flush but the board paired.

[Redd]

Cold-calling four on the turn is righteous, but the correct play IMO. You're getting sufficient immediate odds and amazing implied odds on the call.

[masse75]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow having to cold-call 4 bets on the turn! The pot is huge, you are getting over 5:1 plus good implied odds, I would make the call. I'd be real concerned if I made my flush but the board paired.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd think with having to cold-call a cap, there's at least 1 jack out there and definitely a better ace. Save yourself 4 bets. Action leading into the river makes me think someone already has a straight.

Edit: should have clarified--turn coldcall is correct due to pot size and implied odds. River is an immediate fold.

It might be a good call on the turn, but it's very close at best. You just don't have all the outs you mention. A non- /images/graemlins/spade.gif Jack means you split the pot 5 ways. An Ace probably means you someone fills up and you lose at least 2 BBs on the river. Your best outs are the spades and you'd rather not see the King.

[trigeek08]

Why did you check the trun? Planning on a c/r? That Q does look like an action card, but if a non Q/J spade had fallen, would you have lead out?

Also, unless you think utg+1 MP+2 MP+3 and CO all have jacks, then, IMO, an A only pays someone else off, someone in there has to have a set; your best hope being 2 pair. I would also not be playing to make a straight, 1/2 pot it about the best you can expect here as well.

You have 8 outs to the nuts, and you're getting huge implied odds. If you don't hit the spade on the river, you can fold easily, not having to spend another single bet. If you hit though, your flush is pretty well concealed since there was only a single spade on the flop. A diamond will likely slow down any betting on the river, but with a spade, and all that action on the turn, hopefully there will be a war on the river and you cash big time.

No brainer call, even if we only use 8 pure outs. Enormous impled odds easily justify the call and you'll likely get callers behind you on the turn anyway.

The raise on the flop was a little impetuous, I think: you're very unlikely to drive out any other A against you, since certainly any other A has you outkicked. In fact, that flop was just about as bad a flop as your hand could sustain, and you raised into it. There may be good reasons to do that, but I'm an idiot, and can't imagine what they are.

And I believe other posters suggest a check raise on the turn. I agree.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise on the flop was a little impetuous, I think: you're very unlikely to drive out any other A against you, since certainly any other A has you outkicked.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero is outkicked, he likely has a number of hidden outs to chop because the board came so high.

The raise is a matter of hand protection (hero happens to be up against a flopped straight this time, but it happens). Gutshots will be getting 11:2 = 5.5:1 to chase their 4 out draws. Compare this to 10:1 if hero just calls.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
It might be a good call on the turn, but it's very close at best.

[/ QUOTE ]
no, it isn't close. he is getting over 5:1 immediately on the turn and can expect to be getting over 6:1. his turn call ended up being 6.75:1. he needs 4.75:1 on this turn call to break even. this is nowhere near close, especially when you consider implied odds.

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you check the trun? Planning on a c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]
no, i think he checked the turn because he got 12 cold callers on the flop and there's now nearly 100% chance he does not have the best hand. check raising is pointless.

[ QUOTE ]
And I believe other posters suggest a check raise on the turn. I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]
read above.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It might be a good call on the turn, but it's very close at best.

[/ QUOTE ]
no, it isn't close. he is getting over 5:1 immediately on the turn and can expect to be getting over 6:1. his turn call ended up being 6.75:1. he needs 4.75:1 on this turn call to break even. this is nowhere near close, especially when you consider implied odds.

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you check the trun? Planning on a c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]
no, i think he checked the turn because he got 12 cold callers on the flop and there's now nearly 100% chance he does not have the best hand. check raising is pointless.

[ QUOTE ]
And I believe other posters suggest a check raise on the turn. I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]
read above.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep exactly, its a high variance call, but folding is a huge mistake

[DCWildcat]

To celebrate SAT vocab turkey day, I'm going to say that raising that flop isn't impetuous, it's imperative.

I've never been in a situation to call that many bets cold, but yours was legit. That's freakin badass, man.

I am going to comment on your preflop play : it is fine. Given a loose table suited aces can be limped profitably. The rest of the hand is played perfectly as well. Don't even consider calling anything on the river. I would fold even if I hit an ace.

I think the flop raise is bad. Yes you have top friggin pair in a decent pot. But the board is really draw heavy and even if youre ahead now you wont shake loose the possible flush and straight draws that probably gladly will call both the flop and turn.

Fold on the flop.

[DCWildcat]

We don't want a lone paint card to be justified in calling the flop with a gutshot, or a crappy non-ace getting outs for 2 pair. Make them make an incorrect call here. We really do have to raise this flop.

[ QUOTE ]
We don't want a lone paint card to be justified in calling the flop with a gutshot, or a crappy non-ace getting outs for 2 pair. Make them make an incorrect call here. We really do have to raise this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have 6.5 very dirty outs. The bdfd is good but the aces are probably not worth even close to 3 outs and our two pair might already be beaten. Even if it isnt i can count 20 bad cards(Any diamond, K, Q, J or T probably is bad) which make us extremely sensitive to redraws.

Add that to the fact that they are either very loose and then will call us against the odds for the pleasure of the draws or that they have good cards and then were already beaten.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Add that to the fact that they are either very loose and then will call us against the odds

[/ QUOTE ]

This would suck... It's so much better to just call and let them play correctly instead of inducing an error.

*grunch*
Not so sure about the protective value of the flop raise, but given position I'm doing the same.

Check on the turn is good, as is call. You've easily got the odds, and if you make your hand you'll be paid off like there's no tomorrow.

River check/fold is good.

HMMMMM....
I find myself bucking the trend again.

Unless SB is an UBERUBERLAAAAAAG - I call this flop. And I think it's much closer to folding than raising.

SB just bet into 7 freakin' players on the most coordinated board in the history of poker. I can safely call this flop and happily know that I'm not protecting anything as I'm likely already behind. The only reason I'm calling is my BDFD and my hidden outs against SB's better hand.

GS draws are already making a mistake because the cards they want are going to be in other callers hands or a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to which I'm folding anyway. Since I'm not ahead at this point, they're making most of their money from the lead hand anyway and taking very little from me. Not worth the investment to protect against in the unlikely case that I'm actually ahead. Even if I am ahead, my edge would be slimmer than Kiera Knightly.

IMO. Raising is -EV

BTW. The Turn call is SOOOOO EASY.

[trigeek08]

[ QUOTE ]
Check on the turn is good, as is call. You've easily got the odds, and if you make your hand you'll be paid off like there's no tomorrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was a spade falling on the turn not one of the best cards hero could have hoped for? Assuming that it is why not lead out and hope to get this pot pumpted up? I am some what new to limit, so forgive me if this is obvious, but against all of these oponents, wouldn't hero want to get as much money in on this turn as possible with 8 clean outs to the nuts? And, assuming that it is only one bet when it gets back around to you, would a c/c be better than a c/r?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Add that to the fact that they are either very loose and then will call us against the odds

[/ QUOTE ]

This would suck... It's so much better to just call and let them play correctly instead of inducing an error.

[/ QUOTE ]

When there is many loose players and many draws out there it isnt the best hand that benefits of loose calls, its the strong draws.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Add that to the fact that they are either very loose and then will call us against the odds

[/ QUOTE ]

This would suck... It's so much better to just call and let them play correctly instead of inducing an error.

[/ QUOTE ]

When there is many loose players and many draws out there it isnt the best hand that benefits of loose calls, its the strong draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying the gutshot is a "strong" draw, or are you worried about flush draws?

If there's a flush draw out there then yes, he's going to benefit if there are lots of callers. But this does not mean that you don't benefit as well. Like it or not, whenever you're up against a flush draw when you have the best hand, he's going to hog a large share of the pot. This does not mean that you don't get a share as well:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1368323
pokenum -h as 3s - 9d 7d - jc 8h - kh 7s -- ad kd ts
Holdem Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ts Ad Kd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 326 39.76 489 59.63 5 0.61 0.399
9d 7d 325 39.63 490 59.76 5 0.61 0.398
Jc 8h 85 10.37 730 89.02 5 0.61 0.105
7s Kh 79 9.63 736 89.76 5 0.61 0.098

Of course, you win more when he doesn't have the flush draw:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1368324
pokenum -h as 3s - td 7c - jc 8h - kh 7s -- ad kd ts
Holdem Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ts Ad Kd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 456 55.61 354 43.17 10 1.22 0.559
7c Td 108 13.17 702 85.61 10 1.22 0.135
Jc 8h 147 17.93 663 80.85 10 1.22 0.182
7s Kh 99 12.07 711 86.71 10 1.22 0.124