King high and to the river we go...

[avisco01]

I was going to post this in the SSE forum, but was told that this limit is technically micro, thus I will abide by the rules and post this here. How is this line? Button is tight weak and I had shown down some pretty strong hands for the better part of an hour:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold</font>, Hero raises</font>, 4 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)</font>
Hero bets</font>, CO folds, Button raises</font>, Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)</font>
Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (8.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)</font>
Hero bets</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

*grunch*

You say, he's tight and weak. Moreover you think you have a strong table image. Still BU cold-calls preflop and raises the preflop-raiser on the flop in a not-so-big-pot. BU could have an overpair here (when he's weak, he won't raise with overcards). He could have 66 hoping for his gutter to come in. You are drawing at most 6 outs. The texture of the board is unfavorable. In the end you got lucky. Still I would not take this line often. I think you are going overboard with your overs here.

That's very similar to a line I took tonight at 30/60 (see the 15 BB Challenge thread), except I had a turn donkbet to deal with instead of a flop raise. I was expecting to lose that hand, and I'd expect to lose it even more at 1/2. (The A was probably what did it for you - fortunately he was playing a low/mid PP instead of the ever-popular weak ace.)

What was your plan if he capped the flop or raised the river?

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

You say, he's tight and weak. Moreover you think you have a strong table image. Still BU cold-calls preflop and raises the preflop-raiser on the flop in a not-so-big-pot. BU could have an overpair here (when he's weak, he won't raise with overcards). He could have 66 hoping for his gutter to come in. You are drawing at most 6 outs. The texture of the board is unfavorable. In the end you got lucky. Still I would not take this line often. I think you are going overboard with your overs here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed to an extent. I think button raises a lot of hands I'm ahead of at the moment, any flush draw that does not contain the A /images/graemlins/club.gif, and he's reraising with pretty much any pair, to which I'm still drawing live to all but two (AA and KK obviously). The A /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the river was a great card for me obviously, and yes, I did get lucky in that respect, but is my thinking off by a lot here?

[ QUOTE ]
but is my thinking off by a lot here?

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Well it's not exactly weak to raise a flushdraw on the flop with one caller and to reraise with any pair (I actually do not get that sentence of yours there completely...). So the read you presented could be a little off /images/graemlins/wink.gif
-You are behind AA, KK, QQ, drawing very slim to AQ and AK (which he probably didn't have but that is result-oriented!).
-He might let you do the betting for a set of his, planning to raise somewhere later. That is not uncommon on 1/2 (slowplaying sets to the river, no matter the board).
-He could have 44 pumping his OESD.
There are a lot of hands that you are not exactly drawing very live to. That you reason that the A was a good card for you might be due to the fact, that villain folded...

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
That's very similar to a line I took tonight at 30/60 (see the 15 BB Challenge thread), except I had a turn donkbet to deal with instead of a flop raise. I was expecting to lose that hand, and I'd expect to lose it even more at 1/2. (The A was probably what did it for you - fortunately he was playing a low/mid PP instead of the ever-popular weak ace.)

What was your plan if he capped the flop or raised the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he caps the flop I'm calling. I may check / fold the turn U/I should he bet into me. If he caps the flop and I hit one of my non-club overcard outs I'm leading the turn and calling down should he raise. If he raises the river, I think I can safely fold U/I as not a lot of players are reraising hands on this river that don't beat my king high.

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but is my thinking off by a lot here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's not exactly weak to raise a flushdraw on the flop with one caller and to reraise with any pair (I actually do not get that sentence of yours there completely...). So the read you presented could be a little off /images/graemlins/wink.gif
-You are behind AA, KK, QQ, drawing very slim to AQ and AK (which he probably didn't have but that is result-oriented!).
-He might let you do the betting for a set of his, planning to raise somewhere later. That is not uncommon on 1/2 (slowplaying sets to the river, no matter the board).
-He could have 44 pumping his OESD.
There are a lot of hands that you are not exactly drawing very live to. That you reason that the A was a good card for you might be due to the fact, that villain folded...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats fair. I didn't think he had AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or TT because he didn't reraise preflop. Same goes for AK and possibly AQ as even the tightest of players will usually reraise preflop with these holdings. Thus my read on his hand was based on his play preflop, as well as the flop and turn, not in hindsight on his decision to fold on the river. Honestly, I think a medium pair, 66 through 99, or a flush draw are his most likely holdings. The thing about the flop play is, I think its pretty standard. I'm leading most of the time against two or fewer opponents when the flop leaves me with overcards. The button's flop raise did surprise me a bit, but it left me to a decision between raising and folding (I don't like calling at that point), so I decided to 3-bet figuring I can take control of the hand, and he could be raising a lot of hands that I'm still ahead of, namely the draws. Point well taken however, perhaps I just got lucky in this spot.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing about the flop play is, I think its pretty standard

[/ QUOTE ]

um no it isn't

[ QUOTE ]
I'm leading most of the time against two or fewer opponents when the flop leaves me with overcards. The button's flop raise did surprise me a bit, but it left me to a decision between raising and folding (I don't like calling at that point), so I decided to 3-bet figuring I can take control of the hand, and he could be raising a lot of hands that I'm still ahead of, namely the draws. Point well taken however, perhaps I just got lucky in this spot.



[/ QUOTE ]

you are behind a solid amount of the time here on the flop, and once the BTN raises HU you are behind close to 100%

that or your read is off, WT players aren't raising a draw here, you got lucky to catch the Ascarecard on the river, and grossly overrepped your hand and took it down.

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing about the flop play is, I think its pretty standard

[/ QUOTE ]

um no it isn't

[ QUOTE ]
I'm leading most of the time against two or fewer opponents when the flop leaves me with overcards. The button's flop raise did surprise me a bit, but it left me to a decision between raising and folding (I don't like calling at that point), so I decided to 3-bet figuring I can take control of the hand, and he could be raising a lot of hands that I'm still ahead of, namely the draws. Point well taken however, perhaps I just got lucky in this spot.



[/ QUOTE ]

you are behind a solid amount of the time here on the flop, and once the BTN raises HU you are behind close to 100%

that or your read is off, WT players aren't raising a draw here, you got lucky to catch the Ascarecard on the river, and grossly overrepped your hand and took it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the input. Is it standard to then check / fold overcards on this flop? Or bet and then fold to a raise? Is that what I should be doing? Or do I call a reraise on the flop and fold on the turn U/I? I guess the consensus is that I didn't play this well at all and just got lucky? Is it possible that I simply had bluff outs as well as my overcard outs, and simply made a good move at the right time? Is it at all possible that my read was solid and I just played the hand as well as I could which happened to end in a good result for myself? I'll usually fold to a reraise in that spot, or take another card only to fold on the turn U/I, but I took an alternate approach here. Its not something I'd try too often, obviously, as again the consensus is that I played this poorly.

[avisco01]

One thing I should mention is that I mistakenly referred to the button as "weak tight." I realize this changes the analysis, but I didn't have many hands with which to go on. Thus far he had only shown a set of 4's, and only played about 12 hands. I noticed he had never raised, but with such a short sample of hands its not correct to label him anything, so I apologize for that mistep. I agree that weak tight players usually will not be raising draws very often!

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the input. Is it standard to then check / fold overcards on this flop? Or bet and then fold to a raise? Is that what I should be doing? Or do I call a reraise on the flop and fold on the turn U/I? I guess the consensus is that I didn't play this well at all and just got lucky? Is it possible that I simply had bluff outs as well as my overcard outs, and simply made a good move at the right time? Is it at all possible that my read was solid and I just played the hand as well as I could which happened to end in a good result for myself? I'll usually fold to a reraise in that spot, or take another card only to fold on the turn U/I, but I took an alternate approach here. Its not something I'd try too often, obviously, as again the consensus is that I played this poorly.


[/ QUOTE ]

first off not all overcards are created equal, not all boards are good either, and number of opponents is important, as is who is raising you .. so there isn't a simple way to play them, and looking for a simple 1line answer for all overcard play isn't the way to look at it


[ QUOTE ]
One thing I should mention is that I mistakenly referred to the button as "weak tight." I realize this changes the analysis, but I didn't have many hands with which to go on. Thus far he had only shown a set of 4's, and only played 12hands

[/ QUOTE ]

see bolded sections for contradictions

[ QUOTE ]
I noticed he had never raised

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how many times I've went 15-20hands without a raising hand, and I raise 10-12% at fullring, 16-18% at 6max .. so don't try to make stat readbased plays off of 12-15hands

I can't think of a player type that I would 3bet this flop with KQo no backupdraws

[kapw7]

The flop raise is useless. On the river I don't think you can make a better hand (i.e. a low pair) to fold against a fairly decent player but it's 1/2 and a weak opponent so maybe you can get away with it given the pot size (bad players don't adjust to pot size and can make bad folds).

[avisco01]

Bottomset, you've convinced me, I'm a failure. I played this recklessly and just got lucky. Thanks for your input everyone.

[DCWildcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottomset, you've convinced me, I'm a failure. I played this recklessly and just got lucky. Thanks for your input everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah, it's ok, this is how you learn. Props for having the guts to admit that.