they play bad, do I play worse?

BB is a passive calling station fish (52/6/.5 over 100 hands). Button sat down an orbit or so ago, I don't have stats on him yet; he seems aggressive so far but it hasn't been working out for him. MP1 is another calling station. I'd never seen either button or BB raise this much preflop. I'd give my image but these guys definitely aren't paying attention.

Comments on all streets appreciated, thanks and have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (16.66 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (12.33 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button calls $26.50 (All-In), <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (18.86 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero ???

[ihardlyknowher]

With only 100 hands on the guy, I am calling this river bet with TP. If someone raises behind me, I would muck no problem.

Do you fold the flop or turn?

Played perfectly.

Personally, I prefer betting the turn after BB checks. Button has no chips left so he is presumeably going all-in. I would really like to know what the hell MP has though. Your line is not bad though. BB's aggressive stance on this hand worries me a bit, especially since his AF is 0.5. I'm leaning towards a call on the river. It can be argued that you should fold the turn against BB's raise though.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you fold the flop or turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd fold the flop.

b

[MattiasL]

[ QUOTE ]


I'd fold the flop.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont go for the gutshot?
Seems like easy odds for me, unless you have to pay more than 2 SB.

I am folding the turn.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'd fold the flop.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont go for the gutshot?
Seems like easy odds for me, unless you have to pay more than 2 SB.



[/ QUOTE ]

You're not really in the right spot to go for the gutshot. Not to mention the players involved, you could easily be looking at 2 bets on this flop.

b

[Dazarath]

[ QUOTE ]
You dont go for the gutshot?
Seems like easy odds for me, unless you have to pay more than 2 SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

With two players left to act behind me, and one them being aggressive, as well as a 3-bettor preflop, I'd fold. The OP could be drawing to a 3-outer with redraw possibilities, if the flush draw is out.

[MattiasL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


You dont go for the gutshot?
Seems like easy odds for me, unless you have to pay more than 2 SB.



[/ QUOTE ]

You're not really in the right spot to go for the gutshot. Not to mention the players involved, you could easily be looking at 2 bets on this flop.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok (?)
My analysis:

There is 16 SB already in the pot on the flop. When BB bets out I would think that I might get to see the turn for 1 SB (great odds) or 2 SB (since the passive BB will not threebet that often). With BB and the button joining me for 2 SB, I get 1:10 odds which means I only need to collect 1 additional BB on a jack. Seems nice.

When MP1 coldcalls on the flop I like my hand less since he seems to be on a draw which should mean I have only three jacks available (MP1 on either flush or straight draw with a jack). But by then I am closing the action for one more SB. Easy call.

On the turn my hand is almost guaranteed not to be good, and I have no clean outs. Clear fold.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I get 1:10 odds which means I only need to collect 1 additional BB on a jack. Seems nice.


[/ QUOTE ]

You need to collect more than 1 bet. 3 clean outs alone is 14-1, not 11-1. Add additional odds for a redraw against you.

The reason I discount the other out completely is that takes up the partial dirty out plus the possibility that someone may be holding a J.

Mind you, should you see the turn, and the flush J hit, you're not auto-folding to a bet especially if the BB is the one betting. Tough spot to be in, actually.

[ QUOTE ]
When BB bets out I would think that I might get to see the turn for 1 SB (great odds) or 2 SB (since the passive BB will not threebet that often).

[/ QUOTE ]

BB is a passive that's just capped preflop and bet the flop into an UTG initial raiser and preflop 3 bettor. That's usually AA or KK. You have an aggressive behind you that 3 bet you(uncharacteristically, according to the OP) and will very likely raise this flop. I don't see this flop going for just 1 bet. Here's to wishful thinking. Figure a 2 bet flop. Also the factor that a player is almost all in which takes away some of your implied odds should you hit your hand.

I think it's a close decision overall.

b

[MattiasL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get 1:10 odds which means I only need to collect 1 additional BB on a jack. Seems nice.


[/ QUOTE ]

You need to collect more than 1 bet. 3 clean outs alone is 14-1, not 11-1. Add additional odds for a redraw against you.


[/ QUOTE ]

But if it goes for 2 bets with only BB and button playing the risk for a flush is not that bad (it would almost have to be AsKs or AsQs, and high PPs are more probable). MP calling changes things.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When BB bets out I would think that I might get to see the turn for 1 SB (great odds) or 2 SB (since the passive BB will not threebet that often).

[/ QUOTE ]

BB is a passive that's just capped preflop and bet the flop into an UTG initial raiser and preflop 3 bettor. That's usually AA or KK. You have an aggressive behind you that 3 bet you(uncharacteristically, according to the OP) and will very likely raise this flop. I don't see this flop going for just 1 bet. Here's to wishful thinking. Figure a 2 bet flop. Also the factor that a player is almost all in which takes away some of your implied odds should you hit your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But if the button and MP are not totally hopeless they will also know BB has a power hand. So getting 1 SB is far from impossible (if for example button has AK), and even if the chance is smallish it helps your odds. For example if the price is
- 30% 1 SB
- 50% 2 SB
- 20% 3-4 SB
I have odds even if I were to fold to a BB 3bet (which I am not sure if I would do even with MP calling - but a cap sucks in that situation).

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's a close decision overall.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can agree with that.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a close decision overall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think so too, that’s why I posted this hand. Also I was multitabling several good tables at the time and couldn’t put as much thought into my decisions at this table as I wanted to.

[ QUOTE ]
BB is a passive that's just capped preflop and bet the flop into an UTG initial raiser and preflop 3 bettor. That's usually AA or KK. You have an aggressive behind you that 3 bet you (uncharacteristically, according to the OP) and will very likely raise this flop. I don't see this flop going for just 1 bet. Here's to wishful thinking. Figure a 2 bet flop. Also the factor that a player is almost all in which takes away some of your implied odds should you hit your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although the aggressive player behind me has 3 bet preflop for the first time, I don’t think it is necessarily uncharacteristic – I haven’t played many hands with him. I put him on a typical 3 betting range here, perhaps a little wider. In retrospect he may have been tilty after really pushing some hands earlier that he lost.

At the time of the hand I thought the flop would go 2 bets, as it did, but that the turn would only cost me a bet to continue since BB is so passive. I completely did not expect the BB to check-raise the turn, and it freaked me out. I really rushed my decision here, and I thought another Q would give me trips to beat the supposed AA/KK of the BB, which with the gutter outs and implied odds should justify a call. MP1 could have anything that is remotely related to the board, 2 random spades are definitely a possibility, as well as JT. Button could have AKs or AQs, or even trip tens. So hitting another Q may not be an out. Throughout the hand I don’t think I was adequately discounting my outs. If I don't fold the flop I think the turn is definitely a fold.

Looking at the hand now I like folding the flop best. It could definitely go 3 or 4 bets, my position stinks, and I may be facing flush and house redraws (or higher straight draws) even if I improve.

Since I wandered my way to the river, do you like calling it? Or are 20:1 odds not good enough for top pair with 2nd kicker in this hand?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Since I wandered my way to the river, do you like calling it? Or are 20:1 odds not good enough for top pair with 2nd kicker in this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're really not sure if this 'passive' player that just capped preflop and checkraised the turn and is now leading into you on the river has you beat, call it.

b

[lil feller]

Am I the only one that folds to the PF cap from a guy that raises 6% of his hands. I don't see many flops you can like against this field in a capped pot.

Even if you flop a draw, like you did sort of did, you're sandwiched inbetween the 2 preflop agressors and are going to have to pay a lot of bets to draw. This is not a good spot for KQs, I let this go to the PF cap.

lf

[Vincent Lepore]

Folding to two more bets (reraise and cap) preflop is probably the correct play. (capped by a passive calling station must send fear through your heart). Limping with K,Qs, online, utg, is probably a better play than raisng.

The rest of the hand is straight forward although I probably bet the turn.

Vince

Fold PF. If not, Fold the flop. If not there, fold the turn.

Tex

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that folds to the PF cap from a guy that raises 6% of his hands. I don't see many flops you can like against this field in a capped pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding to two more bets (reraise and cap) preflop is probably the correct play. (capped by a passive calling station must send fear through your heart).

[/ QUOTE ]

Originally I thought that getting 7:1 on the last 2 bets going in gave good enough odds to call, but I ran thru some simulations with likely hands and it isn’t enough. I agree I should have laid this down before the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're really not sure if this 'passive' player that just capped preflop and checkraised the turn and is now leading into you on the river has you beat, call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the actual hand I folded the river. Here are the results:

River: (18.86 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds[Kh, Qh], MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 20.86 BB

BB shows [ Js, Qs ] two pairs, queens and nines.
MP1 doesn't show [ Tc, 6c ] two pairs, tens and nines.
Button doesn't show [ 4d, 4s ] two pairs, nines and fours.

Button left the table after this hand, BB stuck around and played like a passive calling station for another hour before he left. I'm still amazed he capped preflop.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
BB bets, Hero folds[Kh, Qh], MP1 calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

What! Wow did I miss that. Horrible fold.

Vince

[Dominic]

preflop: overly aggressive but not horrible as long as you're not always capping with this hand...

flop: don't like it. raise this and get the others to fold - clean up your outs a little. You've still got a pretty good hand here - four outs to the nuts and six more outs to TP...you played this too passively.

turn - it's checked to you - LEAD! Make any diamonds pay for their draw. If you run into KJ/J8 - oh well - you still have a few outs to chop.

river - well, i certainly don't like a bet now with on all-in. I don't think you're making a better hand fold, so check/fold to a bet.


Ah...thought the OP was the one capping - fold preflop. If not, fold on the flop.

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
Played perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not raise this flop, Kathleen?