99 -- possible leak

[private joker]

MP1 is a LAG, CO is an unknown.

An important thing to note, though, is that when CO capped PF, he did so instantaneously after I 3-bet, as in he had the auto-raise-any button clicked, whatever that means.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (12.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.20 BB

Suggestions for other lines are welcome, for I believe this may be a leak in my game.

[WillMagic]

I bet/fold the river.

Will

[krimson]

I think folding when he raises you again on the flop is an option. If this isn't an option in your opinion, then your line is optimal.

I think I would be content to just call this one down, you got it down to HU and that should be enough. If you reraise the flop and he decides to call you down with overs or AK/AQs nothing much will change except that you lose more when you are wrong. If he indeed has AK he will save a bet on the river if he decides to fold to your bet but you might induce him to bluff once more with it.

[ncboiler]

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding when he raises you again on the flop is an option. If this isn't an option in your opinion, then your line is optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an unknown there is no way I fold an over pair on this flop. I like his line

[BWebb]

I think I bet the turn. I don't want him taking a free card with overs/flush draw. If raised, I still couldn't fold to an unknown. I'd check call the river.

[pokerjunky]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet/fold the river.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? How often does he call with Ace high vs. how often does he run you off the best hand. I think check/call is best unless its against a total loose-passive.

Playing against an unknown who had the auto raise button on kind of worries me. Mainly the unknown part.

Your line works as its the easiest way to get to SD. Other optional lines might be a turn CR, or bet/fold the river. Both of those ones I'd consider using, but a read on the opponent would go a long ways. Assuming your opponent has half a clue, out of the 'standard' autoraising capping hands, I dont think you are beating anything besides AK and maybe AQs?

Therefore, atleast you didnt spew anymore bets. Folding on either the turn or river seems awfully weak.

Though, with the tone of the post, I am going to assume JJ+ dragged the pot.

Side note: curious to see how this thread goes, I've been having immense problems playing my 99

[WillMagic]

His range is AK-AQ, AA-TT. (i'm basing this on the auto-raise preflop.) If we check, he bets the hands that beat us, and checks behind with ace-high. That's not a fun bet to call.

If we bet the river...he'd be really something if he could find a raise with AK. He'll bluff-raise us close to never. But he'll almost certainly call with AK-AQ.

[Nick C]

I don't think there's much you can do. Once CO caps, you'd like to be able to go back in time and fold instead of 3-betting, but that's not an option.

On the flop, you want to protect your overpair, in this four-handed pot, and the only way to do that is to bet and hope CO pops it with unimproved AK (or even AQ). So you bet and he raises, but once he raises the chances that he just has overcards just went down a bit.

Will's bet-fold river line is something to consider, but I'm not sure it makes a big difference. You're probably beat, and some players who auto-raise the flop will fire on the river with AK. I don't think you're guaranteed a call from ace-high, and if Villain is familiar with the check-call, check-call, bet line (and your approach to this hand is only a slight variation on this line), he may raise again with AK, so I don't think bet-folding the river is without risk. (I doubt you'll get raised by ace-high that often, but it'll be expensive when it does happen.)

Anyway, though, I think the biggest problem is that you got dealt 99 in a hand where someone else liked his cards enough to cap. You'd rather not play under those cirucumstances, but you can't know CO's plans in advance.

Definite Leak! 99 is NOT a reraising hand in small stakes holdem. Call the first raise if LAG raiser raises on a wide range of hands--but don't invite a reraise by raising a middle pair with only 2 outs and 5 possible overcards that could hit the flop and beat them--if the CO or LAG are not already in the lead. After the flop : no set no bet.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
Definite Leak! 99 is NOT a reraising hand in small stakes holdem. Call the first raise if LAG raiser raises on a wide range of hands--but don't invite a reraise by raising a middle pair with only 2 outs and 5 possible overcards that could hit the flop and beat them--if the CO or LAG are not already in the lead. After the flop : no set no bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is trying to isolate the lag not have a nice family pot that just calling the initial raise will bring.

I dont see the initial play as a leak, once the guy autocaps behind though I am worried but as the flop has come low against an unknown I think it was played optimally. But it is worth bearing in mind even bad loose players tend to have a small range when cold capping preflop.

On the turn I may be tempted to bet/fold a brick but against an unknown in a decent sized pot going to showdown isnt hugely bad imho.

[ArturiusX]

At first glance, I was thinking 3-betting the flop. This looks like an isolation raise, we may have a superior hand. If he caps, ha, not sure what to do.

how about 3 betting the flop and folding to a cap? That way you can be close to sure he's got an overpair. To me calling down after he caps is too expensive a way to find out if he's a (relatively rare) LAG with AK or something. I'd rather fold (to a cap) and watch what he does after the hand and get a better read for the next time.

[restless]

[ QUOTE ]
how about 3 betting the flop and folding to a cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

if we 3-bet the flop, what would you do on the turn? bet/fold, bet/call, check/call?

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
how about 3 betting the flop and folding to a cap? That way you can be close to sure he's got an overpair. To me calling down after he caps is too expensive a way to find out if he's a (relatively rare) LAG with AK or something. I'd rather fold (to a cap) and watch what he does after the hand and get a better read for the next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it was coming to us capped then this big pot would be offering 20-1 I am not folding this at that point you would have to see the turn and try and spike the set.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how about 3 betting the flop and folding to a cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

if we 3-bet the flop, what would you do on the turn? bet/fold, bet/call, check/call?

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm, how about bet/fold turn (he's slowplaying us). Check/call river to try induce a bluff if he's got AK (he's folding AK if we bet). Also if we bet the river we don't have to decide whether to call a raise that could be a bluff or could be the slowplayed goods

[ QUOTE ]
If it was coming to us capped then this big pot would be offering 20-1 I am not folding this at that point you would have to see the turn and try and spike the set.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well I guess we can squeeze a call in here with implied odds, and then check/fold a blank turn. Still works out 1 BB cheaper than calling down.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
Definite Leak! 99 is NOT a reraising hand in small stakes holdem. Call the first raise if LAG raiser raises on a wide range of hands--but don't invite a reraise by raising a middle pair with only 2 outs and 5 possible overcards that could hit the flop and beat them--if the CO or LAG are not already in the lead. After the flop : no set no bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your advice is wrong. In late-middle or late position, 99 is fine to reraise to isolate a LAG raise. If you have a good image, you aren't inviting a 4 bet by 3 betting a LAG raise - that's crazy talk.

Your advice to cold call a LAG raise with 99 and then play the hand for set value only is terrible under these circumstances.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
If we bet the river...he'll almost certainly call with AK-AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree that this is true vs. an unknown.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
Definite Leak! 99 is NOT a reraising hand in small stakes holdem. Call the first raise if LAG raiser raises on a wide range of hands--but don't invite a reraise by raising a middle pair with only 2 outs and 5 possible overcards that could hit the flop and beat them--if the CO or LAG are not already in the lead. After the flop : no set no bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This thinking is a bit narrow and bookish. Isolating a LAG who could be raising with lots of hands (like two broadway cards) is the correct play. Two 9s beats most hands he'll be raising here. You hate getting 4-bet, but you certainly don't want to play this for two cold against two other players.

Once you get headup on the flop, this is close to an ideal board for 99. Bet out the flop, and once raised, the calldown here is fine in a big pot. A flop fold wouldn't be terrible if you're confident about his overpair, but against a loose unknown I think you have to get to a cheap showdown. You'll be shown overpairs here a fair bit, but the times that you catch him raising light will pay for this. I think Zach played this fine.

It doesn't make sense to say things like '99 isn't a raising hand' or 'no set no bet' (you probably say 'fit or fold', too). Poker decisions need to be made with the particular information at hand, not with overgeneralized formulas.