View Full Version : A Spicy One?
6 handed Party 5/10. A tight (23.9/14.8/2.7) opens UTG, folds to me and I 3-bet AA in the SB, BB folds, UTG caps, I call.
Flop is KJ6 no flush draw. I checkraise, he calls.
Turn is the 4 of something. I bet, he raises, I call intending to SpicyF the river.
augie00
11-23-2005, 10:06 PM
seems like a nice spot for a river checkraise. as long as doing a "spicyF" means checkraising. unless a king falls or something. obviously.
Stinkybeaver
11-23-2005, 10:14 PM
If we check/raise river wouldn't it suck to get 3-bet and should we call..? He could easily have KK or JJ on this board, although he'll have AK a lot aswell.
There are 6 combos of AK and 3 each of KK and JJ. It doesn't look like there is value in a river raise, unless you catch an ace of course.
Victor
11-23-2005, 10:24 PM
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
Danenania
11-24-2005, 01:20 AM
I agree. Also I think AK is less likely to play like this than a set.
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
surfdoc
11-24-2005, 01:24 AM
Can someone update me on what the spicyf move is. While you are at it, who the hell is "The Daver"? This guy has 10k posts. It must be a name change and I missed the memo. Is this sfer?
Michael Davis
11-24-2005, 01:53 AM
"Is this sfer?"
Yes, it's sfer.
His new name is even worse than his old name. But I grew to love his old name because I love sfer. Now I'm mostly just pissed at the whole namechanging crap again.
-Michael
surfdoc
11-24-2005, 02:00 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"Is this sfer?"
Yes, it's sfer.
His new name is even worse than his old name. But I grew to love his old name because I love sfer. Now I'm mostly just pissed at the whole namechanging crap again.
-Michael
[/ QUOTE ]
It does create a little confusion when some guy has a zillion posts and you never heard of him.
BTW, what is this spicy thing these guys are describing?
flawless_victory
11-24-2005, 02:07 AM
if anything,it seems like u should lead the river in case he wants a free SD (but is stupid enough to call)... if he bets the river in pos, seems like youre not even a fav to have the best hand.
robinsons
11-24-2005, 02:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
the times we're ahead on the river we win 2bb if we c/r.
the times we're behind (to kk/jj) we lose 3bb if we c/r.
imported_leader
11-24-2005, 02:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, what is this spicy thing these guys are describing?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing it's a C/R but I've never heard of it either.
wheelz
11-24-2005, 02:08 AM
checkraising the river to save bets (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=mediumholdem&Number=7 81406&Searchpage=4&Main=781406&Words=SpicyF&topic= &Search=true#Post781406)
wheelz
11-24-2005, 02:09 AM
he's not calling a 3-bet
surfdoc
11-24-2005, 02:16 AM
awesome, thanks
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
the times we're ahead on the river we win 2bb if we c/r.
the times we're behind (to kk/jj) we lose 2bb if we c/r.
[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
baronzeus
11-24-2005, 02:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
the times we're ahead on the river we win 2bb if we c/r.
the times we're behind (to kk/jj) we lose 2bb if we c/r.
[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
[/ QUOTE ]
heres what i dont understand, and i'd like you to explain...
we are ahead about 50% of the time. the times we are behind, he will 3bet and we will fold. don't you think there's the slightest chance that he 3bets AK on the river, making your move -EV? it seems even EV at best here too...please explain
Okay lets review: 1) Villian is UTG 2)Villian capped 3) Villian is not a LAG 4) there is a King & a Jack on the board 5)Villian probably uses data miner or PT or both and has some stats on Hero
Hero is ahead less than 50% of the time
I do not sexy this guy
If sexying this guy is correct then I'm moving to Party for a variety of reasons
I want to know the results, please.
Isnt it possible that this guy saw the memo about capping hands HU that he normally "shouldnt" for deception purposes?
Spicymoose
11-24-2005, 08:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
the times we're ahead on the river we win 2bb if we c/r.
the times we're behind (to kk/jj) we lose 2bb if we c/r.
[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
[/ QUOTE ]
Plus we get an extra half the pot the times he has AA (sometimes).
flawless_victory
11-24-2005, 08:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
the times we're ahead on the river we win 2bb if we c/r.
the times we're behind (to kk/jj) we lose 2bb if we c/r.
[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
[/ QUOTE ]
Plus INCORRECTLY FOLD, AND LOSE OUR half the pot the times he has AA (sometimes).
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah.
[ QUOTE ]
if anything,it seems like u should lead the river in case he wants a free SD (but is stupid enough to call)... if he bets the river in pos, seems like youre not even a fav to have the best hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you think AK isn't betting the river you're nuts.
flawless_victory
11-24-2005, 03:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if anything,it seems like u should lead the river in case he wants a free SD (but is stupid enough to call)... if he bets the river in pos, seems like youre not even a fav to have the best hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you think AK isn't betting the river you're nuts.
[/ QUOTE ]
i think AK bets this river nearly 100% of the time and if you didnt understand what i said, that isnt my fault.
Spicymoose
11-24-2005, 03:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
the times we're ahead on the river we win 2bb if we c/r.
the times we're behind (to kk/jj) we lose 2bb if we c/r.
[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
[/ QUOTE ]
Plus INCORRECTLY FOLD, AND LOSE OUR half the pot the times he has AA (sometimes).
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, that happens too, but I think my situation happens more.
flawless_victory
11-24-2005, 03:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
the times we're ahead on the river we win 2bb if we c/r.
the times we're behind (to kk/jj) we lose 2bb if we c/r.
[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
[/ QUOTE ]
Plus INCORRECTLY FOLD, AND LOSE OUR half the pot the times he has AA (sometimes).
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, that happens too, but I think my situation happens more.
[/ QUOTE ]
i am absolutely certain u are wrong here.
Spicymoose
11-24-2005, 03:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
the times we're ahead on the river we win 2bb if we c/r.
the times we're behind (to kk/jj) we lose 2bb if we c/r.
[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
[/ QUOTE ]
Plus INCORRECTLY FOLD, AND LOSE OUR half the pot the times he has AA (sometimes).
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, that happens too, but I think my situation happens more.
[/ QUOTE ]
i am absolutely certain u are wrong here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, I just looked back over the hand and you are right. Why do you always have to be right!
sthief09
11-24-2005, 03:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
the times we're ahead on the river we win 2bb if we c/r.
the times we're behind (to kk/jj) we lose 2bb if we c/r.
[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
[/ QUOTE ]
heres what i dont understand, and i'd like you to explain...
we are ahead about 50% of the time. the times we are behind, he will 3bet and we will fold. don't you think there's the slightest chance that he 3bets AK on the river, making your move -EV? it seems even EV at best here too...please explain
[/ QUOTE ]
in addition its just unneded variance.
BUT i think there are 2 hands that are very possible that no one mentioned. KQ and KJ. i wouldnt be surprised in the least if KQ caps preflop. BUT again, id imagine us folding a big pot probably makes check-call best
[ QUOTE ]
BUT i think there are 2 hands that are very possible that no one mentioned. KQ and KJ. i wouldnt be surprised in the least if KQ caps preflop.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think KJ will cap just as often as KQ. And I implied that villian could have KJ.
Are you going to post the results?
sthief09
11-24-2005, 03:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
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if anything,it seems like u should lead the river in case he wants a free SD (but is stupid enough to call)... if he bets the river in pos, seems like youre not even a fav to have the best hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you think AK isn't betting the river you're nuts.
[/ QUOTE ]
i think AK bets this river nearly 100% of the time and if you didnt understand what i said, that isnt my fault.
[/ QUOTE ]
i dont think theres enough bluffing or aggression going on at 5/10 where the better players need to adapt strategies like raising the turn for a free showdown with AJ or even AQ (not that either play would necessarily be good, and raising AQ would be horrid, but you see what im getting at i hope)
[ QUOTE ]
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if anything,it seems like u should lead the river in case he wants a free SD (but is stupid enough to call)... if he bets the river in pos, seems like youre not even a fav to have the best hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you think AK isn't betting the river you're nuts.
[/ QUOTE ]
i think AK bets this river nearly 100% of the time and if you didnt understand what i said, that isnt my fault.
[/ QUOTE ]
Jesus you're a prick.
EDIT: In the spirit of not being a prick, a la you, if AK vs. KK/JJ are equally likely and all 3 bet the river 100% of the time, how am I a dog when he bets?
flawless_victory
11-24-2005, 04:20 PM
i never said AK would threebet the river. i tyhink thatd be rare.
im saying, more likely he called flop/raised turn w/ a set than TP. TP more likely to threebet flop. also some chance this guy wouldnt cap pre without a pair.
im also saying that turn raise could easily be a "free" SD play w/ a J or QQ. these hands are actually fairly likely to call flop/raise turn.
[ QUOTE ]
i never said AK would threebet the river. i tyhink thatd be rare.
im saying, more likely he called flop/raised turn w/ a set than TP. TP more likely to threebet flop. also some chance this guy wouldnt cap pre without a pair.
im also saying that turn raise could easily be a "free" SD play w/ a J or QQ. these hands are actually fairly likely to call flop/raise turn.
[/ QUOTE ]
My response was to you saying that I'm a dog to a river bet, which, if you look only at the probabilities, is not true (assuming he doesn't cap a 2-pair hand like KJ etc preflop). I'm not particularly concerned about getting more value out of QQ/Jx given that I can't expect those to be reasonable hands to go 3 BB after the flop. Further, a bet/fold plan for the river is always raised by a better hand and called by AK whereas a river checkraise nearly always gets 2 bets out of AK--a nice thing about playing non-experts online is they will usually be suspicious enough to pay off with TP to checkraises on river blanks. So it looks like I get an extra bet half the time, assuming that the river fold to a 3-bet can be done safely and that we can narrow him down pretty much to AA/KK/JJ/AK. A final comment is that desperation river bluff raises happen, albeit rarely, but that desperation river 3-bet bluffs happen approximately never, so if I'm worried at all about folding incorrectly this should weigh heavily.
Victor
11-25-2005, 09:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6 combos of kk or jj.
6 combos of ak.
1 combo of aa.
check and call the riv.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, to me, is a good argument to call the turn and checkraise the river.
[/ QUOTE ]
but this is not
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Also I think AK is less likely to play like this than a set.
[/ QUOTE ]
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