Let me deal with my doubts, calling turn raises HU [Archive]

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friends

11-23-2005, 04:33 PM

SB: PT autorated him as fish with 45% VPT acc. to his 35 hands.

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 1 folds, SB calls, 1 folds.

Flop: (7.00 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero ?

Final Pot: 9.50 BB.

I know, he may be a fish, that means passive postflop. But I've seen so many rocks which behavior changes dramatically when heads-up, that I stopped look very seriosly at heads-up turn raises especially on the dangerous turns. In addition to this the fish was able to have two pair (in which case I had many outs), thats why I decided to just call and see the river, going to fold to his river bet.

I had two additional options:
1) RR turn: fold to cap and check river, folding to his river bet.
2) Calling to the end having about 1:4

I know it is difficult to find the correct decision when HU without opponent reads, but on Party 0.5/1 players come and quit so frequantly, that it is almost impossible to get any reads.

How do you usually consider turn raises in this situation from uknown?

jrz1972

11-23-2005, 04:41 PM

Call down. You're probably going to lose to the flush, but sometimes your opponent will be getting way out of line with something like AT.

I can understand the case for folding right here, but calling the turn and folding the river UI strikes me as being a very poor option. Reraising is also bad, since if villain is bluffing you don't want to slow him down.

HouseCalls

11-23-2005, 04:50 PM

ok I guess its time for my weak tight post of the day:

I have started folding pretty often in this spot. I'm playing PS .10/.20. At least in this games players listed as rocks, fish, or calling stations seem to play very straight forward. I used to call this down most of the time and just didn't seem to find a lot of bluffs. One other problem - calling down to yet another painful draw out runs the risk of my going on mega-tilt which has a greater negative EV than not catching the 1 in 100 bluff here.
That said against an aggressive player I RR

MrWookie47

11-23-2005, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Call down. You're probably going to lose to the flush, but sometimes your opponent will be getting way out of line with something like AT.

I can understand the case for folding right here, but calling the turn and folding the river UI strikes me as being a very poor option. Reraising is also bad, since if villain is bluffing you don't want to slow him down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty small pot. Also, the turn card was an undercard. If it's an overcard to the board (not to your pair), it's usually a better call down. Folding this is good.

jrz1972

11-23-2005, 05:05 PM

Yeah actually on second thought it's kind of hard to come up with a hand that a known passive would play this way that doesn't have me beaten.

How would your play in this spot differ if villain were TAG? LAG?

11-23-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah actually on second thought it's kind of hard to come up with a hand that a known passive would play this way that doesn't have me beaten.

How would your play in this spot differ if villain were TAG? LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you have a lot of outs against his two pair hands. For instance vs. T8, you've got 8 outs, and the pot is 7.5 BBs after he checkraises. Also, is it possible he could be doing this with a T and the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? You do beat that.

I tend to call these checkraises down without a strong read, but I'm not sure whether or not it's right.

jrz1972

11-23-2005, 05:15 PM

Yeah but the problem with this is that even if one of your "outs" hits, you'll often be shown a set or a flush, so you need to substantially discount your outs against two-pair.

MrWookie47

11-23-2005, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah actually on second thought it's kind of hard to come up with a hand that a known passive would play this way that doesn't have me beaten.

How would your play in this spot differ if villain were TAG? LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd want to catch some other sort of bluff, esp. a c/r bluff against any player, tag, lag, slag, flag, rag, nag, or wag, before I called this down. The pot is just really small. Throw a few more BB in and the call down looks a little more appealing, but this isn't a great board even then.

nomadtla

11-23-2005, 05:33 PM

*grunch*
1) RRing turn does nothing for us - if I'm gonna pay 2 bet's to see this down I want to at least add a bit of value by hoping he continues his weak bet on the turn.
2) The question is do I want to pay 2BB to see this down. If I call the raise I'm not folding to the bet that will automatically come on the river. So while we have some outs against 2 pair I'm actually gonna say that since I'd call a river bet 100% that I'm acctually paying 2 for this 7.5 pot (8.5 after his river bet). That's only giving me 4.25:1 and I don't think after discounting my 2 pair outs (since we may be dead in the water) we're good often enough to call here.

friends

11-23-2005, 05:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
That's only giving me 4.25:1 and I don't think after discounting my 2 pair outs (since we may be dead in the water) we're good often enough to call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really 4.25:1. Add here the possibibity of semi-bluff (bluff) raise.

nomadtla

11-23-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
That's only giving me 4.25:1 and I don't think after discounting my 2 pair outs (since we may be dead in the water) we're good often enough to call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really 4.25:1. Add here the possibibity of semi-bluff (bluff) raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what the pot is offering if you call the raise and a river bet, and 90+% of the time they will continue it bluff or not on the river. So you have to figure calling this raise and the river bet means the pot is offering you 8.5:2 or 4.25:1. Are you good or will you make a hand that wins 23% of the time here. I don't think we do.

Stealthy

11-23-2005, 06:39 PM

The size of the pot makes it kinda close but I think I still want to show this down. Vilain may have just the Ten and planned on check-raising the turn whatever and is just following his plan through. Being a passive may take this out of the equation but I would always showdown against a non-passive.

Cant make my mind up about this I guess that if I am playing well I find a fold, but if not so well I show it down.

So if playing well and a definate passive I fold, against anyone else of playing poorly I call down.