A nut flush draw and a big pot [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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johnzzz

11-23-2005, 01:13 PM

Low limit Hold'em (9 handed loose table) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, CO raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, CO 3-bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (26 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button raises, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, CO folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 33 BB

With a possible nut flush and 8 at the flop I played this steathily, letting the pot build and waiting to pounce. But should I have been aggressive earlier?

milesdyson

11-23-2005, 01:16 PM

my lord you missed out on several bets on that flop. please do a search on "pumping draws" and "pot equity."

also, you are lucky the river check raise worked (rofl CO folded anyway).

sean c

11-23-2005, 01:18 PM

Raise/capp that flop and bet the river. Nice hand.

numeri

11-23-2005, 01:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my lord you missed out on several bets on that flop. please do a search on "pumping draws" and "pot equity."

also, you are lucky the river check raise worked (rofl CO folded anyway).

[/ QUOTE ]
Yup.

To the OP: Seriously, do a search on the terms Miles gave you. And also, just because people are aggressive in the turn doesn't mean they'll continue that aggression on the river when the flush card hits. You'll feel like an ass when the river gets checked through - just bet.

Nick C

11-23-2005, 01:28 PM

On the flop, I would raise when it first got to me. The gutshot's not trustworthy (someone out there probably has a 6), and your overcards aren't entirely reliable outs, but you do have the nut flush draw, and raising might actually buy you some outs.

If I decided just to call, I wouldn't be able to resist 3-betting when the action in this 7-way pot got back to me.

Doing so could cut down on your action if you catch, but I think you have too much equity in a field this big not to make that 3-bet. You're going to make your flush by the river a little more than a third of the time, and you do have some other (much less reliable) ways to win.

The river checkraise seems all right to me, but it depends on how likely your opponents are to decide you must have been drawing to the flush to be doing all that calling. CO does seem to like his hand a lot, though, and it appears Button either flopped a big hand or caught a king (or kings up) on the turn.

bozlax

11-23-2005, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With a possible nut flush and 8 at the flop I played this steathily, letting the pot build and waiting to pounce. But should I have been aggressive earlier?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

11-23-2005, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I decided just to call, I wouldn't be able to resist 3-betting when the action in this 7-way pot got back to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I don't completely hate the first flop call, but only if you make it intending to 3-bet if it comes back to you. Hey, CO might even cap it for you. It's extremely unlikely that you'll be able to make up the extra bets on the turn and river that you miss by just calling on the flop. The CO folding to your river is a good example of this.

AASooted

11-23-2005, 04:44 PM

I can see an argument for not raising the flop the first time through since you'd be facing half the field with calling two cold, but I think you have to 3-bet this flop when it comes around to you last to act. Your pot equity is huge here.

Without a read on CO or Button, I don't know if going for an overcall on the river is right or not. With all the action so far, I'd probably raise it and figure everyone's calling in such a huge pot. If I'm lucky, maybe one of them will cap.

UATrewqaz

11-23-2005, 05:30 PM

I would have 3 bet the flop, as you have the nut flush draw but also a gutshot straight draw and an A overcard. Translation = mucho pot equity.

SoftcoreRevolt

11-23-2005, 05:53 PM

You need to 3 bet the flop once it comes back to you. I don't mind th efirst call since a raise could likely push out CO, Button, SB and BB, but the second time around you have to 3 bet or cap.

11-23-2005, 06:52 PM

..grunch..

on that flop, you need to totally jam it after CO raises. There's a gazillion people in that pot and you will be getting the best of it. Party on dude!

it would be not incorrect to jam this turn as well

the checkraise on this river is risky, but the pot is so big it doesn't really matter. I wonder if you'd get more if you just bet out. You might expect a lot of action anyhow.

Augster

11-24-2005, 01:39 AM

grunch

I can't think of a single reason where I'm not trying to get 4 bets in the pot on that flop. With that many people in, get the money in!

Only cost yourself a few BB's. With as aggro as everyone has been this entire hand, it wasn't all that risky to check the river. I would have most likely bet/3-bet it though. I would just about die if it had been checked through.

TomBrooks

11-24-2005, 08:27 AM

You were in perfect position to trap a lot of people for a third bet on the flop.

This pot got surprisingly big considering you didn't do much to help it grow. You won't usually have two people doing all the betting for you like that on every street.

Trapping the field for a third bet on the turn looks somewhat +EV to me also if you consider your wheel outs will be good sometimes and your ace outs might be good occasionally.

11-24-2005, 09:02 AM

*grunch*
[ QUOTE ]
But should I have been aggressive earlier?

[/ QUOTE ]

The standart play would be to raise the flop. With many people yet to act, I think it is debatable but acceptable to wait and hope for a raise by someone behind you. That needs appropriate reads, though. You should've reraised the flop when it came back to you, trapping all the callers for one, maybe even two more bets if it's capped. You would not have been that stealthy, yes, but it doesn't matter too much, here. What are you trying to hide? You don't have a monster, yet! I don't think that noone will bet when you check the turn fearing a check-raise. Esp. when it is capped after you reraise. And even if it is: you don't mind the free card that much, although you have a draw to a flush and a wheel...
When you finally hit your flush on the river, many people won't be willing to let you pound them anymore...

11-24-2005, 11:33 AM

Jam it. Most people you play against don't neither care nor think about what you have anyway...and your typical micro limit player will most likely have forgotten what happened on the flop when the turn/river card comes anyway, esp. with that many involved in the hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

mackthefork

11-24-2005, 12:13 PM

You closed the action on the flop, definitely raise that flop again, be very happy if someone makes it 4 and everyone calls.

Mack