80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker

[Fianchetto]

Bay 101

I've been in the game about an hour or two and I talked to Sucker briefly before he got in the game so he knows who I am, and I know him, etc... He also knows that I haven't played a whole lot of the 80 game, I've usually been playing the 40.

Sucker sits down and posts behind the button, it's folded to him and he raises, Button and SB fold, I call in the BB with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif . We're heads up.

Flop: 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, he bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I call.

Turn: T /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, he checks

River: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, he calls.

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Results and thoughts later.

[daryn]

not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

[partygirluk]

I'd 3 bet preflop, as he is likely raising with (almost) any two there, AQo is a monster. I realise you were likely "slowplaying" preflop, but I don't like it (you should be 3 betting a tonne of hands there).

[shemp]

Check the river. You want to give him a chance to bluff or bet an A.

I'd re-raise PF. You're ahead of most hands he makes this move with IMO. As played, I dont like the flop c'r. Looks to much like you're just on a steal kind of thing like "i know you dont have anything yet" and he's like "i know you dont have any of that either, we're going to the turn" type move. I would have just called the flop and probably either led the turn or c'r the turn. I like the river bet, and his call to me looks like an A little hand.



Tex

[Fianchetto]

[ QUOTE ]
not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

[/ QUOTE ]

Is my play standard then? I feel like I botched one street.

[MNpoker]

In the new style FCR {}

Preflop FCR{0, 50%, 50%}
Flop B, C/C, C/R {33%, 33%, 33%}

I think I'm in the lead on all of these but this is a good spot to mix things up. Because I can now play SO many hands this way. The percentages will change but my C/R no longer clarifies my hand, nor does any other action.

If I check raised the flop I'm betting now. 90%
If I check called the flop I'm B, C/R {50% , 50%} This is highly based on the villian.
If I bet out on the flop I'm betting now. 90%

River: C/R, B {25%, 75%}

[MNpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

[/ QUOTE ]

Is my play standard then? I feel like I botched one street.

[/ QUOTE ]

HU vs a potential blind steal is never standard IMO.
This is a situation where a player can gain (or lose) a lot of checks in the long run. (By properly stealing or protecting)

What was your thought process on the turn?
- Were you hoping he would bet and you could get a bluff to put more checks in?
- Were you looking to check raise?
- Did you think he had you beat and were laying this down at some point?
- Other?

That might help to explain if your play was correct. In our opinions - which also may or may not be correct /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[1800GAMBLER]

River c/r time.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
As played, I dont like the flop c'r. Looks to much like you're just on a steal kind of thing like "i know you dont have anything yet" and he's like "i know you dont have any of that either, we're going to the turn"

[/ QUOTE ]

who's nothing do you think is better?

and who's nothing doesn't really mind putting in 3 bets on the flop?

Barron

[MNpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
River c/r time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Seems to me there are two ways to get one more bet on the river.
- You bet he makes a crying call
- You check he makes a bluff bet

(If number 1 > number 2 then a bet is in order)

Other possibilities:
He has a ace (smaller or bigger) or some other hand that beats you (not sure how this is possible).
- You bet he raises you call (win or lose 2 bets)
Usually I would expect you win, but will be unwilling to risk a 3 bet.

- You check raise he 3 bets (Are you laying it down?). Lose 3 bets almost always.
Usually I would expect you lost.

I would do the hand combo thing but I find that the assumptions of creating what's possible is so wide that a 'feel' is better in this case than some numbers with potentially large errors.

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

[/ QUOTE ]

Is my play standard then? I feel like I botched one street.

[/ QUOTE ]

the turn? are you thinking you should have led out because he checked behind, possibly with a draw?

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Bay 101

I've been in the game about an hour or two and I talked to Sucker briefly before he got in the game so he knows who I am, and I know him, etc... He also knows that I haven't played a whole lot of the 80 game, I've usually been playing the 40.

Sucker sits down and posts behind the button, it's folded to him and he raises, Button and SB fold, I call in the BB with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif . We're heads up.

Flop: 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, he bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I call.

Turn: T /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, he checks

River: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, he calls.

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Results and thoughts later.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd check-raise the river.
-James


EDIT: God damn you gambler for responding first! But seriously, if it isn't obvious his hand is Ax or unpaired flush draw on the turn, then I am really out of touch with how live poker plays. Check-raise the river and cackle loudly.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
River c/r time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Seems to me there are two ways to get one more bet on the river.
- You bet he makes a crying call
- You check he makes a bluff bet

(If number 1 > number 2 then a bet is in order)

Other possibilities:
He has a ace (smaller or bigger) or some other hand that beats you (not sure how this is possible).
- You bet he raises you call (win or lose 2 bets)
Usually I would expect you win, but will be unwilling to risk a 3 bet.

- You check raise he 3 bets (Are you laying it down?). Lose 3 bets almost always.
Usually I would expect you lost.

I would do the hand combo thing but I find that the assumptions of creating what's possible is so wide that a 'feel' is better in this case than some numbers with potentially large errors.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to use some hand-reading here. It's highly unlikely that Sucker has anything besides a missed draw or an ace. Both of which he should bet on the river, one of which he will not call a bet on the river.
-James

[Brian R]

Here is what I'd do. 3 bet preflop 90% or the time and all just 10% of the time. If he raises me on the flop I'd 3 bet about 60% of the time and call 40% of the time. If he 4 bets me I check fold turn otherwise check/call the turn. The river I bet out about 70% of the time and c/r 30% of the time....

[bicyclekick]

You're giving up quite a bit by not check/raising the river.

[Michael Emery]

Am I going to be the first one to have to beg for a three-bet preflop here or what? I assume you didnt do it for deception purposes and possibly thought you might be able to extract more from him later on? Is this worth it?

Mike Emery

[brick]

If he got sucker to go 3-bets with a worse ace or draw then it was worth it.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
River c/r time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Seems to me there are two ways to get one more bet on the river.
- You bet he makes a crying call
- You check he makes a bluff bet

(If number 1 > number 2 then a bet is in order)

Other possibilities:
He has a ace (smaller or bigger) or some other hand that beats you (not sure how this is possible).
- You bet he raises you call (win or lose 2 bets)
Usually I would expect you win, but will be unwilling to risk a 3 bet.

- You check raise he 3 bets (Are you laying it down?). Lose 3 bets almost always.
Usually I would expect you lost.

I would do the hand combo thing but I find that the assumptions of creating what's possible is so wide that a 'feel' is better in this case than some numbers with potentially large errors.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just wrong.

AK bets the turn. his most likely hand by far is an ace. this is a standard river checkraise. especiallyy given pf call.

Barron

[mike l.]

3 bet preflop and c/r the river.

[jayheaps]

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop and c/r the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[golferbrent]

If you felt you were ahead on the flop... did you consider a 4 bet?

It seems to me that JA is very capable of going 3 bets on the flop with nothing, as well as with something. However, he is definitely less likely to go 5 bets with nothing.

If you put 4 bets in and lead the turn then you have the abiltiy to make JA define his hand properly. Especially, if you felt you had the best hand.

As the play turned out, I think I would let JA bluffvalue bet at the pot and c/r.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
If you felt you were ahead on the flop... did you consider a 4 bet?

It seems to me that JA is very capable of going 3 bets on the flop with nothing, as well as with something. However, he is definitely less likely to go 5 bets with nothing.

If you put 4 bets in and lead the turn then you have the abiltiy to make JA define his hand properly. Especially, if you felt you had the best hand.

As the play turned out, I think I would let JA bluffvalue bet at the pot and c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not obvious we are ahead of JA until the turn. That said, I just want to echo the sentiments of the other posters that a 3 bet pf here is obvious as a standard play, but calling and cr-ing any flop from time to time is good too.
-James

[mike l.]

"I just want to echo the sentiments of the other posters that a 3 bet pf here is obvious as a standard play,"

no. i think in theory it is standard because if one really thinks about it, it's the best way to start getting value out of the hand (there are several other good reasons too), but my experience is most players good or not will just flat call this preflop with deception and "let's see a flop first" being the main reasons.

Well, good point barron. Our nothing is probably better than JA's nothing.

That being said, I'd re-raise PF and try to CR the river.


Tex

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
River c/r time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so too.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
"I just want to echo the sentiments of the other posters that a 3 bet pf here is obvious as a standard play,"

no. i think in theory it is standard because if one really thinks about it, it's the best way to start getting value out of the hand (there are several other good reasons too), but my experience is most players good or not will just flat call this preflop with deception and "let's see a flop first" being the main reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

By "standard" I mean the play that makes the most money in a vacuum and the play that I do the vast majority of the time. I'd venture that most live players call here but most online players 3 bet at comparable stakes. I know when I play live I always get mindfucked because everyone seems to be calling big aces in the blinds.
-James

[skp]

In general, I like the smoothcall preflop in this spot with a view to checkraising any flop other than those that you hit.

But I would change my flop plans here when it comes down 522.

When you checkraise that flop, Sucker should know you are prolly full of it. If you had a pp, you would 3 bet preflop. You prolly don't have a 5 or 2 particularly since you are stepping up to the 80 game from your usual 40 game. Your checkraise on the flop should look like Ax or a flush draw to sucker and he will play it accordingly.

Besides, when the flop comes JT3 and you checkraise, Sucker might fold a hand like 88 either then or on the turn. He ain't folding 88 (and probably not folding any two cards) when the flop is 522.

So, I would just call preflop and just checkcall the flop.

BTW, my new book "Checkcall your way to Millions" is just about ready for the printers. Pre-orders accepted...heh

Having played it the way you did, the river checkraise is the much better play for resaons given by Jmaes, Mike l, Barron et al. But for PR reasons, I never made that play when playing live (keep in mind that I used to play in a realtively small cardroom where everyone knows everyone). Online, I would have no qualms with pulling the river checkraise trigger.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
But for PR reasons, I never made that play when playing live (keep in mind that I used to play in a realtively small cardroom where everyone knows everyone).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have qualms about checkraising, not only should you quit poker permanently, but you should seriously consider killing yourself.

[Joe Tall]

I feel it's clear he has a naked Ace on the turn when he checks and if he doesn't he'll bluff bet often enough at the Ace on the river to warrant a river check-raise.

[mike l.]

"I'd venture that most live players call here but most online players 3 bet at comparable stakes."

i completely agree.

"when I play live I always get mindfucked because everyone seems to be calling big aces in the blinds."

exactly. i almost said something about this distinction but wasnt sure if it was the case online. thanks.

[mike l.]

"If you had a pp, you would 3 bet preflop."

my read is hero would flat call preflop with 66-22, maybe 77.

[Fianchetto]

Here are some of my thoughts on the hand:

The street I feel I messed up was the river, I really wish I had checkraised. I thought about it at the time, but I didn't want to feel like an idiot if it went "check, check".

When Sucker 3-bets the flop and checks the turn, it pretty much confirms he doesn't have a pair and he wanted a cheap river. Overcard hands/draws are the most likely candidates, so that ace either hit him, or it represents the perfect bluff card for him to fire on. Either way he is very likely to bet the river allowing me to checkraise.

Regarding preflop: I agree that 3-betting preflop is fine, and the standard play, but I don't think calling is bad either. It disguises the strength of my hand and since Sucker will likely autobet every flop, I plan on checkraising most flops.

Sucker's range here preflop is very wide. If I reraise he is alerted that I have something decent and 3 small bets preflop may be all I get out of him. I will also be out of position against a player who is definitely capable of testing me if he can narrow my hand range. i.e. I 3-bet preflop, lead, he raises me on a blank turn....not an easy decision for me holding an unimproved AQ.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But for PR reasons, I never made that play when playing live (keep in mind that I used to play in a realtively small cardroom where everyone knows everyone).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have qualms about checkraising, not only should you quit poker permanently, but you should seriously consider killing yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You clearly either:

1.) Lack serious reading comprehension

or

2.) Think that "the big picture" refers to a movie screen.

Josh

[skp]

No qualms about checkraising in general.

But river checkraises in spots such as this where you are clearly sending a signal that you have just outplayed your opponent was one that I consciously avoided in live play in our small cardroom.

Our games were great: loose, lots of friendly chat, hardly anyone cussing at you or the dealers for bad beats etc. There were also huge pots (frequently over a grand in our 10-20 game). The last thing I wanted to do was get under a guy's skin for a measly 1 extra big bet by checkraising the river in a spot like this. It was counterproductive in that particular environment.

Checkraising when the board was K7397 and I held A7 is a different story. No one gets pissed off at that.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, my first reaction is that the hand was played pretty poorly. PF is fine I guess (though I reraise here), but if I just flat called PF I'm definitely 4-betting the flop here. As the first 3 streets were played, the river bet blows HARD. Not nearly enough bets went in on this hand.

GoT

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop and c/r the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is really all that needs to be said.

PS. this is the easiest river CR in the history.

[andyfox]

You should seriously consider the ramifications of killing the game.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, I like the smoothcall preflop in this spot with a view to checkraising any flop other than those that you hit.

But I would change my flop plans here when it comes down 522.

When you checkraise that flop, Sucker should know you are prolly full of it. If you had a pp, you would 3 bet preflop. You prolly don't have a 5 or 2 particularly since you are stepping up to the 80 game from your usual 40 game. Your checkraise on the flop should look like Ax or a flush draw to sucker and he will play it accordingly.

Besides, when the flop comes JT3 and you checkraise, Sucker might fold a hand like 88 either then or on the turn. He ain't folding 88 (and probably not folding any two cards) when the flop is 522.

So, I would just call preflop and just checkcall the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks SKP, I was starting to think I must suck reading all the replies. I definitely mix up what I do with AQ in the BB vs a steal so I agree that the call isn't bad. I also agree that this isn't the type of flop to checkraise, although if you do checkraise you probably should cap his impending 3-bet.

You didn't mention your turn action so maybe I still suck. If I happen to just call preflop with AQ here, I would check-call the flop and donk any turn. This way we put in the same amount of bets and avoid giving a free card.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding preflop: I agree that 3-betting preflop is fine, and the standard play, but I don't think calling is bad either. It disguises the strength of my hand and since Sucker will likely autobet every flop, I plan on checkraising most flops.

Sucker's range here preflop is very wide. If I reraise he is alerted that I have something decent and 3 small bets preflop may be all I get out of him. I will also be out of position against a player who is definitely capable of testing me if he can narrow my hand range. i.e. I 3-bet preflop, lead, he raises me on a blank turn....not an easy decision for me holding an unimproved AQ.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find all this preflop discussion pretty interesting. I would understand the flop call more if this was a standard CO open raise but this was him raising his stinking post. However, in this situation the flat call and your thinking seems a bit weak tight. I think this is a time when you really need to 3 bet for metagame reasons in addition to just flat out value. You need to tell him not to fuuck with you and put the tough decision on him. Forget how you feel betting unimproved AQ on the turn and start thinking how HE will feel with 55 on a JK3 board.

[Ray Zee]

your bet out was right on the river for a reason you didnt know. that was that the sucker is a better player than those telling you to check raise on the river.
he would have checked behind you even with an ace.

you played it far too well to be listening to advice. good luck.

[surfdoc]

How do you play this hand preflop Ray?

[mike l.]

"sucker is a better player than those telling you to check raise on the river. he would have checked behind you even with an ace."

um that would be evidence of him being a terrible player. sucker's correctly value betting an A there virtually every time id imagine.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
"sucker is a better player than those telling you to check raise on the river. he would have checked behind you even with an ace."

um that would be evidence of him being a terrible player. sucker's correctly value betting an A there virtually every time id imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I'm certainly accused of being called weak tight postflop, but I'VE BEEN KNOWN (meaning i don't do it alllll that often) of checking aces on the river here. There often is little or no value in betting. In fact, at higher limits, there is often negative value in betting.

Another reason for betting the river is the option to threebet.

Josh

[mike l.]

"There often is little or no value in betting. In fact, at higher limits, there is often negative value in betting."

in a standard live blind steal/cutoff poster situation like this all bb has done is said he has a willingness to win the pot (by c/ring the flop) and all sucker has done is said he has a willingness to see a showdown (by checking the turn). there's no reason for sucker to not bet A6 or whatever here and expect to get called by absolutely any pair from the bb and maybe K high. *especially* since it was a poster vs. poster hand.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you felt you were ahead on the flop... did you consider a 4 bet?

It seems to me that JA is very capable of going 3 bets on the flop with nothing, as well as with something. However, he is definitely less likely to go 5 bets with nothing.

If you put 4 bets in and lead the turn then you have the abiltiy to make JA define his hand properly. Especially, if you felt you had the best hand.

As the play turned out, I think I would let JA bluffvalue bet at the pot and c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not obvious we are ahead of JA until the turn. That said, I just want to echo the sentiments of the other posters that a 3 bet pf here is obvious as a standard play, but calling and cr-ing any flop from time to time is good too.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely... that a 3 bet preflop is a better play here. JA doesnt need much to open raise when he has already posted. His range is quite wide at this point and a 3 bet preflop is a great play against his possible range of hands.

My thought was that on the flop... since we have chosen to call preflop (which is a good play a small percentage of the time) a 4 bet on the flop will make JA define his hand. My sentiment was that JA can easily 3 bet here with any holding on the flop and as such a 4 bet is a strong play that needs to be considered b/c i don't feel he is likely to 5 bet with nothing his first hand at the table.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
You should seriously consider the ramifications of killing the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough.

[skp]

Hm...I simply can't see why Sucker (or anyone) would check the river with an ace.

To Recap:

Flop: 522

Action ends with Sucker's 3 bet.

Turn: Off suit Ten. check check

River: ace

OP checks. Why in the world would Sucker check with an Ace?

I don't get it.

I suppose the argument is that given how Sucker played the hand, he can't expect to get called by a worse hand (because the first hand that OP will put Sucker on when Sucker checks the turn is Ax.). But that then means that Sucker should also know that OP is a good player. OP may very well be a good player but Sucker can't know that since apparently they have not played each other very much.

Even the "I am up against a good player" argument shoudn't dissuade a bet from Sucker. Sucker was in a steal position preflop. Actually, he posted and then raised which guys tend to do with any two cards. He could have a flush draw, straight draw, Queen high or whatever. An Ace is not the only holding he can have when he checks he turn and bets the river (although it is prolly the most common holding given this pattern). So, it is not out of the question for someone in OP's shoes to look up Sucker with as little as King high in this spot.

Also, another reason for OP to check his Ace on the river is that it gives Sucker an opportunity to bluff.

Ray, we need some elaboration here, please.

BTW, I never made it out to the River Rock during the tourney. Apparently, you were there. I am sorry I missed you.

[skp]

I should have read this post before posting in reply to Ray's post.

I agree with you completely.

[J.A.Sucker]

Your suggestion of 4 betting the flop just sets him up for further heartache later. What do you do when you lead the turn and I pop it? I would have done this here. You don't have a pair, but folding is a sick issue because you made the pot gigantic.

[J.A.Sucker]

I probably would have bet an A on the river here, actually. I don't know if I would have called a c/r. However, if I fanned out, I may take a chance to bluff this "good" card. I do like the checkraise here. I also really like the way he played the rest of the hand. People wanting to play a big pot with no pair against me on this board should get their heads examined.

[J.A.Sucker]

You are exactly correct, I didn't even have to post my earlier response.

[J.A.Sucker]

Getting three bets on this river means it's going to 4. That is a bad spot for AQ.

[J.A.Sucker]

I don't give action - I get it. The pot was just about the right size here.

[J.A.Sucker]

I think you played the hand great, until the river, for the reasons that I stated before. Another option is to 3 bet PF, and lead it out. That will win you lots of small pots, and that's good. A river checkraise would have been expert there, for sure. Going ape on the flop just sets you up to be sick on the turn.

FWIW, I had Ah4d, for flopped wheel gutter, backdoor nut flush draw, and an A. I probably was betting the river, since I thought I might get a call from a medium pair. If I didn't have much of a showdown hand, this card is a good bluff card, and checkraising gives me that chance. If he checkraises and gets 3 bet by me, he's in trouble, but them's the breaks.

As for my range of hands preflop, it's simple: all of 'em.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
Hm...I simply can't see why Sucker (or anyone) would check the river with an ace.

To Recap:

Flop: 522

Action ends with Sucker's 3 bet.

Turn: Off suit Ten. check check

River: ace

OP checks. Why in the world would Sucker check with an Ace?

I don't get it.

I suppose the argument is that given how Sucker played the hand, he can't expect to get called by a worse hand (because the first hand that OP will put Sucker on when Sucker checks the turn is Ax.). But that then means that Sucker should also know that OP is a good player. OP may very well be a good player but Sucker can't know that since apparently they have not played each other very much.

Even the "I am up against a good player" argument shoudn't dissuade a bet from Sucker. Sucker was in a steal position preflop. Actually, he posted and then raised which guys tend to do with any two cards. He could have a flush draw, straight draw, Queen high or whatever. An Ace is not the only holding he can have when he checks he turn and bets the river (although it is prolly the most common holding given this pattern). So, it is not out of the question for someone in OP's shoes to look up Sucker with as little as King high in this spot.

Also, another reason for OP to check his Ace on the river is that it gives Sucker an opportunity to bluff.

Ray, we need some elaboration here, please.

BTW, I never made it out to the River Rock during the tourney. Apparently, you were there. I am sorry I missed you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to relpy with something similar but you pretty much said it all. Fianch didnt so anything in this hand to give Sucker a good reason to check an ace behind on the river. There really isnt anything Ray or anyone else could say to make me believe otherwise.

[golferbrent]

The decision has to be made whether you want to make the pot big and do whatever it takes to take it down... or keep it small until you make a hand/or call down UI.

I don't necessarily think that a 4 bet is the absolutely correct play here... but it should be an option to consider. I was just asking if he considered all available options or if once he was 3 bet on flop... did he go into passive call down mode?

As far as your ability to raise the turn with nothing here... I would fully expect you to do that. You are in the mode of trying to do whatever it takes to take the pot down. All factors that need to be considered...

In addition, I think a lot of people have talked about the 3 bet preflop, which from an equity standpoint makes a lot of sense against your range. However, your capping range is pretty much the same range as you opened with. If you have a hand that you can open with... you have a hand you can cap with position. Which can also swell the pot preflop as well...

I thin the discussion here is really good on this hand... and all factors need to be consdiered on all streets to ensure that the hand is played properly and gives you the best chance to win.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have bet an A on the river here, actually. I don't know if I would have called a c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you wouldn't have called the c/r /images/graemlins/smile.gif. However, you'd pop it again with a better hand the one pair of Aces. Also what you'd call with on the river and what you'd bet with are different. In this case the pot is laying you something like 6-1 for a call but if your checked to and betting for value, you're presumably doing that with at least a 55% chance that when your bet is called you're hand is best. I think this essentially is Ray's point.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have bet an A on the river here, actually. I don't know if I would have called a c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you wouldn't have called the c/r /images/graemlins/smile.gif. However, you'd pop it again with a better hand the one pair of Aces. Also what you'd call with on the river and what you'd bet with are different. In this case the pot is laying you something like 6-1 for a call but if your checked to and betting for value, you're presumably doing that with at least a 55% chance that when your bet is called you're hand is best. I think this essentially is Ray's point.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how often does Sucker have better than AQ given his turn check? It seems really unlikely.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have bet an A on the river here, actually. I don't know if I would have called a c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you wouldn't have called the c/r /images/graemlins/smile.gif. However, you'd pop it again with a better hand the one pair of Aces. Also what you'd call with on the river and what you'd bet with are different. In this case the pot is laying you something like 6-1 for a call but if your checked to and betting for value, you're presumably doing that with at least a 55% chance that when your bet is called you're hand is best. I think this essentially is Ray's point.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how often does Sucker have better than AQ given his turn check? It seems really unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not too often methinks. Ok sucker how would you have played monster if you flopped one in this situation /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I will say though that I doubt if hero checks the turn with a pair though.

[Steve Giufre]

Yeah he has to be full to check that turn with the flush draw out there. He could have AK though, although a lot of players would fire again in that spot.

[chaosuk]

Ok I've not read every post, but here are some comments:


PF - I'm not a big fan of playing a mixed style in fairly unique situations, where learning is less valuable. So I'd think Id always 3-bet here, especially on the net. But I'm not convinced that a pure strategy is right.

Flop: I'm extrapolating since I'd not likely find myself in this spot, but I'd play the flop stronger. There are a lot of 2s and 5s in the hands he doesn’t raise with pre-flop, and you are much more likely to dominate than be dominated.

For a steal and a flat call scenario, your hand is likely far too strong and his typically far too weak to let a standard flop chk-raise call go (or coupled with a chk on the turn). If the game is capped, then I’d cap; I don’t much play the uncapped flavour of LHE, but I’d still be tempted to 4-bet. You want to punish him here.

Flop - Turn: Now foe says that by overplaying the flop you are set up for the pop on the turn, to be outplayed, and this is certainly true, we’ve all been there (too often in my case).

But with one action you kill the hand stone dead. If you miss the turn or perhaps don’t hit a 25 or maybe 34, then you check, and in so doing you close the hand down. You aren’t getting played off it now. Your opponent is strangled, you’re not 4-betting that flop to check-pass this turn.

River: In this scenario, I think you’re more likely to bet the river Ace than get cute, simply because his bluff is less likely. But in your scenario, the chk-raise is very much in-play.


chaos

[golferbrent]

Great analysis on all streets. As the hand was played the river is a definite C/R oppurtunity. I like your analysis of the 4 bet option on the flop. I was disappointed to see this option not considered by more posters.

If you feel that you have the best hand here.. I think you need to put in some action. Yes you must consider the possiblity of opening yourself up to being outplayed on the turn... but if you are good enough to play in this 80 game then you are good enough to make the correct tough decisionss on the turn.

The 4 bet and then check call are certainly an interesting line that would be very confusing to JA and could also allow you to get in a c/r on the river. This line could get 1 more SB in the pot and not allowing yourself to get played off the pot.