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colgin

11-23-2005, 10:12 AM

MP is loose pre-flop (and fairly passive) and very passive post-flop. Comments are appreciated.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP raises, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP calls, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (14.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

mute

11-23-2005, 11:16 AM

I think you gotta 3-bet that turn. Only reasonable hands you are behind are 99 and QQ, and BB might well call two cold here.

The way this played out, I think leading the river is good. You get to 3bet if he has a Q, and he might check behind with AA or KK, when the board pairs, and even if a checkraise was succesfull, you could end up making the same if the river donk could elicit a weak call from BB.

wheelz

11-23-2005, 11:18 AM

he's that passive that the turn raise means definitely 99, QQ, or JT? i suppose playing any of those hands like that is possible from him, but i can't think of any player i wouldn't 3-bet the turn against.

brazilio

11-23-2005, 11:18 AM

I just checkraise the river. He's showing a lot of strength here on the turn, and 3x gaybets get everybody nervous.

mtdoak

11-23-2005, 11:22 AM

I love a river check raise here. MP is representing a straight, so no way he is checking through. If he JUST as a queen, he's going to bet as well.

11-23-2005, 11:31 AM

3-bet preflop

colgin

11-23-2005, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
he's that passive that the turn raise means definitely 99, QQ, or JT? i suppose playing any of those hands like that is possible from him, but i can't think of any player i wouldn't 3-bet the turn against.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure; that is the problem. A lot of players you could see playing AQ or KQ this way, but I don't see MP raising the turn with just TPTK after I have shown such strength and there is still one other player in the hand to contend with. I also see two pair holdings as fairly unlikely. Still, I felt kind of sick not re-raising the turn.

Jdanz

11-23-2005, 11:37 AM

the only possible reason i'm not rerasising the turn is to keep the other guy in, certainly not because i think i'm beat.

Given that, i'm raising the turn.

Given how it played out, i like the river check-raise

colgin

11-23-2005, 11:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I love a river check raise here. MP is representing a straight, so no way he is checking through. If he JUST as a queen, he's going to bet as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thought of the sexy certainly went through my mind and I think that is what I probably should have done. I was of course worried about it getting checked through. But if villain does have the straight that I was worried about, he should not necessarily be too concerned by the board pairing given the way I played the turn.

Jdanz

11-23-2005, 11:42 AM

i don't think there is anything wrong with betting out, the river check raise is easily overused. I like it here, but betting out certainly isn't "bad".

MAxx

11-23-2005, 11:53 AM

If you do not 3bet the turn, and I think most of the stronger players would (I admit to not 3betting turn here sometimes)......I think you should def cr the river.

car ramrod

11-23-2005, 12:27 PM

I like a 3bet here pf. A call is ok too. Depends on the CO, but if villian is that passive postflop it should be easy to play.

I am either 3betting the turn, or check raising teh river. I think the donk scares him and you won't get to 3bet this river very often (if that was your intention).

colgin

11-23-2005, 01:56 PM

MP had 66, MHIG and I missed a bet.

luckyharr

11-23-2005, 03:28 PM

3 bet the turn.

The BB is calling two cold here a lot of the time with a 7 or a flush draw. If BB calls 50% of the time you are making 2 BB when ahead and losing at most 3 when behind. Even if you put MP on just 66, 99, QQ, KK, or AA you are ahead of 15 and behind 6 combos, which is plenty to make 3-betting more EV+ than just calling. I'm assuming a passive preflop player doesn't raise 75, T7, or JT before the flop.

luckyharr

11-23-2005, 03:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

With a cold caller and a passive player open raising, I think this is a bad play even if the big blind is tight.

car ramrod

11-23-2005, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With a cold caller and a passive player open raising, I think this is a bad play even if the big blind is tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

he said villian is loose pf, and passive post flop. The cold call doesn't worry me. I think a 3bet pf is nice.

luckyharr

11-23-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]

he said villian is loose pf, and passive post flop. The cold call doesn't worry me. I think a 3bet pf is nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the cold call could be two undercards to 88. My only point is that your preflop equity advantage with 66-88 goes down considerably 3-way and this pot's likely going to be 4-way. I'm not saying you are calling and playing for your set, just calling and evaluating how things look on the flop. Also, there may be a tendency to give up more bets postflop after being the final aggresor preflop, even when the board is unfavorable.

Heads up, sure this is a no-brainer three bet even against a "fairly passive" preflop raiser.

2+2 wannabe

11-23-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP had 66, MHIG and I missed a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

you got unlucky he didn't raise the river

bugstud

11-23-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP had 66, MHIG and I missed 3 bets

[/ QUOTE ]

probably even more, that's the bare min though. then again, you tell me has 66, I think this might be the way to get 'em in. damn.

colgin

11-23-2005, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP had 66, MHIG and I missed 3 bets

[/ QUOTE ]

probably even more, that's the bare min though. then again, you tell me has 66, I think this might be the way to get 'em in. damn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that he didn't raise the river with his full house, I don't think he is capping the turn withhis set if I three-bet (although that could be wrong). The BB is still folding his missed draw or whatever on the river (assuming he calls the two back to him on the turn) so I think I am missing 2 BBs by not re-raising the turn. Still, 2 missed BBs suck. On the other hand, I was really did think (mistakenly) that he had turned a str8.

bdk3clash

11-23-2005, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP is loose pre-flop (and fairly passive) and very passive post-flop. Comments are appreciated.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP raises, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP calls, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (14.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what specific reads you have on MP in terms of stats but the only hands you're losing to are QQ, 99, TJ, T7, and 75. Someone who is "fairly passive" preflop presumably doesn't raise with TJ, T7, or 75.

I think preflop is fine. I'd have checkraised the flop because it seems like a more likely way to get 3 players in for 2 bets each on the flop than leading out. I'm curious why you led out on this flop.

On the turn, MP coming to life and raising after coldcalling and then calling on the flop is strange and you're obviously somewhat concerned about 99/QQ, but I think that this can still very often be AQ/KK/AA or even A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif or A/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif.

If it were heads-up on the turn I think you could make a better case to not 3-bet given MP's postflop passivity but with the chance to 3-bet and lay 14.5:2 to BB instead of 13.5:1 I think a 3-bet is much better than calling here. If MP caps you're pretty much screwed but you should still call down.

On the river at first I wasn't sure why you'd lead out after having not 3-bet the turn but since I think you were winning anyway I like the bet.

Interesting hand.

bdk3clash

11-23-2005, 05:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just checkraise the river. He's showing a lot of strength here on the turn, and 3x gaybets get everybody nervous.

[/ QUOTE ]
I totally don't understand why anyone would checkraise the river here given the turn action. Why shut out the BB from calling one bet the first time around? If you checkraise BB mostly folds and MP might 3-bet (in which case you probably lose, BTW.) If you lead out BB calls with made hands that he probably would fold with for two cold on the river and MP calls or raises, in which case you 3-bet and BB either calls or folds and MP calls (you win) or caps (you probably lose.)

I see way more bets going in when you're ahead by leading out than by checkraisisng this river given how you played the turn.

EDIT: Not to mention the chance that BB was drawing and MP, being passive, checks the river with his overpair or straight.