56s - at a passive table, did I play this too hard?

[Benoit]

A very passive table, a lot of limping and barely any raising pre-flop. I knew I was probably behind on the flop, but I was afraid of a higher flush draw incase it hit. I had seen on multiple occasions them folding to large signs of aggression even when the pot was huge. So 3 betting it was in hopes of folding those higher flush draws.

Was I way off base in how I played this?

0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13.20 BB

[milesdyson]

you're not 3-betting to fold out flush draws, you're 3-betting because you have a pair, a flush draw, and what looks like 3 others trapped ( /images/graemlins/frown.gif button folded). however even with 2 trapped and position on the field the 3-bet is for value.

the turn is very standard.

the river is the question... everything up until here is fine. BB's flop/turn play looks like a top pair hand unwilling to give a free turn card. UTG just seems to be along for the ride.

i conclude that this whole hand is good. the river bet is not an extremely profitable value bet, but it is a value bet nonetheless.

[TheMainEvent]

Love all of it. Hands like this are fun.

[Augster]

You don't 3-bet the flush draw to "force out bigger flush draws". Flush draws aren't going anywhere. You 3-bet for value when your flush draw comes in. Flush over flush, on a 3-flush board, happens like 1 in 23 or something I read once. Read: Not very often.

I like every street. Even if you lost to UTG's 78s it was well played. By how passive he played it, I'd say he's got K-rag and just wants to show it down.

nh.

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
you're not 3-betting to fold out flush draws, you're 3-betting because you have a pair, a flush draw, and what looks like 3 others trapped ( /images/graemlins/frown.gif button folded). however even with 2 trapped and position on the field the 3-bet is for value.

the turn is very standard.

the river is the question... everything up until here is fine. BB's flop/turn play looks like a top pair hand unwilling to give a free turn card. UTG just seems to be along for the ride.

i conclude that this whole hand is good. the river bet is not an extremely profitable value bet, but it is a value bet nonetheless.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what if someone had a higher flush draw or a straight draw, they're certainly coming along 1 maybe 2 bets, but may likely fold to that much action. I say this because I have perhaps 14 outs, or maybe just 2 outs (a 5 could have given someone a straight)... Of course if this is not the case, then yes I have a monster draw and I'm raising for value. But that's the best case right?

River bet: since I consider them loose, I gave a good chance at least one of them would call with a second best hand. If they were the type to only call with a better two pair, then yes I should check. No?

edit: Okay I'm probably wrong about the flush draw, but a straight draw is capable of folding I think, especially an inside straight draw. That opens up another 3 outs.

[MCS]

Perfect.

[milesdyson]

sure, if there's a higher four flush out there, you only have like ~5 outs or something. however it is rare enough that you don't have to worry much about it.

and you'll never in your life get anyone to fold a higher flush draw on the flop anyway - so forget about it.

your comment on the river - yeah of course if they would only ever call with better two pair hands, you would check through. fortunately these players don't need two pair to call most of the time - they just need two cards.

[Augster]

I really hope you aren't folding to action on the flop with 4 to the flush. Odds-wise, it's almost ALWAYS incorrect to fold. Maybe not push as hard on a paired board, but incorrect to fold most often.

True, you can push out gutshot draws, but that isn't the purpose of the 3-bet, it's a by-product. You have UTG trapped in between, raise it up.

Yes, you lose a LOT of money when the board doesn't pair and there is only 3 to the flush on board, and you lose to a higher flush. But that happens pretty rarely. If you recognize it, you can slow down a little, but not on the flop with small bets. Get as many as you can in there any way you can with more than one other player in the hand.

How does it go, you are putting in 33% of the money with 35% pot equity? A guaranteed 2% ROI over time. Moreso with 3 others in the pot. Something like that.

And that is also why you can never get a flush draw to fold. They aren't afraid of straights, and they aren't afraid of trips, unless the board pairs. Then they have to slow down.

Almost always push your 4-flush draws on the flop.

nh.

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
... they just need two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL yeah actually about that, at this table I saw one guy call on the river with a busted straight draw holding 89o and only 9 high! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

...So with a monster draw like 14 outs, my pot equity is so high that I can pump the pot just for value, before people start folding?

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
...So with a monster draw like 14 outs, my pot equity is so high that I can pump the pot just for value, before people start folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
I really hope you aren't folding to action on the flop with 4 to the flush. Odds-wise, it's almost ALWAYS incorrect to fold. Maybe not push as hard on a paired board, but incorrect to fold most often.

True, you can push out gutshot draws, but that isn't the purpose of the 3-bet, it's a by-product. You have UTG trapped in between, raise it up.

Yes, you lose a LOT of money when the board doesn't pair and there is only 3 to the flush on board, and you lose to a higher flush. But that happens pretty rarely. If you recognize it, you can slow down a little, but not on the flop with small bets. Get as many as you can in there any way you can with more than one other player in the hand.

How does it go, you are putting in 33% of the money with 35% pot equity? A guaranteed 2% ROI over time. Moreso with 3 others in the pot. Something like that.

And that is also why you can never get a flush draw to fold. They aren't afraid of straights, and they aren't afraid of trips, unless the board pairs. Then they have to slow down.

Almost always push your 4-flush draws on the flop.

nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the pot has to be big enough right? Just to see the turn my outs give me about 4 against 1 of hitting. Sure it's about 2 against 1 if I see the turn and river for free, but that's likely not going to happen.

[Benoit]

Thanks for the advise.


Results below:
UTG has Ts Ks (one pair, kings).
Hero has 5d 6d (two pair, sixes and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.20 BB.

*grunch*

Fold preflop. Small suited connectors from middle position are bad. You said it's passiv. If it's loose, you can play a little looser (i still wouldn't play 65s from MP). When people tend to fold to action though, that hurts your implied odds. That makes playing 65s from MP worse.

On the flop you have a flushdraw and a small pair. You could have up to 14 outs to 2pair or better. That assumes, BB doesn't have Kings up already or a kicker matching one of your cards. With the 3bet there is only a true chance to fold the button. I think you are too optimistic to fold BB who check-raised (!!! not a truely passive move) you (he could be pumping one of these higher flush-draws you are so afraid of) and UTG who has already called two cold. Since you still have plenty of outs and BB could be check-raising TP with a good kicker and not a flush draw, I think the 3bet has some value with 2 callers.

BB donks into you on the turn. That smells like a set or Kings up. Without a read I would not think my 5s are outs, really. Therefore I'd check behind on the river.

Since BB seems to (semi-)bluff bet the turn against a cold-caller and an 3bettor, I'd take a note. Since you probably didn't know that at the time, I'd still check behind.

[ QUOTE ]
Love all of it. Hands like this are fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

even calling preflop with 65s from middle position? The rest of the hand is ok. But I think preflop is not such a good idea even on a loose table. please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[milesdyson]

at a table such as the one described in this post, the limp is fine. he said it rarely ever got raised before the flop, and he already has 3 limpers in before him. sure, the hand is better in even later position, but this is fine.

as long as this doesn't get raised behind us too often, we're in a good spot.

if everyone folds behind us, we have the best position in a multiway pot with a good multiway hand.

if a couple more people call behind us, we don't have the best position but we're now in a very multiway pot with a hand that is going to be very profitable when we hit.

if you could guarantee me the flop goes 5-way, unraised, i'm limping this utg.