WWJD?

[blumpkin22]

Is this spewing? What would Jeffage do?

Party 20/40, the 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif brings it in, and it's folded to me last to act with (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. There are two dead tens. I complete and the bring-in calls. At this point I think it's likely he's putting me on a steal. Duh.

On fourth we both catch off-suit sevens. I bet and he calls. On fifth I pair my ace and he catches a queen. I bet and he calls. On sixth the boards are

Hero: (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Villain: (xx) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

So I've picked up a 4-flush to go with my pair of aces. But notice also that our boards have many of the same cards (and suits), which we all know from the perspective of the bring-in is a good thing. If he started with the best hand, it is likely that I haven't improved.

In any event, I bet, and he now raises. So I raise him back.

-blumpkin

[Andy B]

I don't think that too many people are capable of raising sixth without having one pair beaten. It looks like you're going to have to hit in order to win, and I have a hard time believing that he's going to fold now or on the river.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that too many people are capable of raising sixth without having one pair beaten. It looks like you're going to have to hit in order to win, and I have a hard time believing that he's going to fold now or on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What two pair hand are you putting him on? And players are definitely capable of raising without two pair in these situations, although I would expect the raise to come on fifth street.

[bigredlemon]

Since he waited until 6th to raise, I'd think he's raising with the expectation that you'll call. Now that you 3bet, whats your line on the river if you miss? c/c or c/f?

[blumpkin22]

It depends whether he caps or not. If he caps, I'm putting him on most likely a set of queens. I think check/fold unimproved, check/cry-call aces up, and check/raise a flush or trip aces. If he doesn't cap, I think I'm bet/calling any river.

[Michael Emery]

You have alot of outs, but I think much more often than not you're behind here. Thus I dont favor the 3-bet on sixth. As for WWJD, Jeffage would catch a diamond.

Mike Emery

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
As for WWJD, Jeffage would catch a diamond.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[jon_1van]

I'd limp here. Bet out any diamond, any card higher than 9 or higher.

I like this line alot more when your door card suxs.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd limp here. Bet out any diamond, any card higher than 9 or higher.

I like this line alot more when your door card suxs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree with this, and I definitely considered it. I should probably use this option more in the future.

[blumpkin22]

For those saying to just call the raise on sixth, what do you think are possible hand ranges for the villain?

I alluded to but didn't mention explicitly in the OP that the villain is a solid player. In particular, he figured that I was stealing, and was likely thinking this on next level as well.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
...although I would expect the raise to come on fifth street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

Some hands that make sense for the other guy:

(27)27Q5
(2Q)27Q5
(77)27Q5
(55)27Q5)

There isn't necessarily a hand that I put him on, as such. I stand by my original assertion that it's pretty rare that a guy will raise sixth without having one pair beaten. It's not like this guy's playing his strong board or something. I think you're drawing, and should proceed accordingly.

[blumpkin22]

Unfortunately Jeff is either busy with vacation stuff or too cool to give his thoughts here. I'm really curious about his thoughts on this one.

After I got raised on sixth, given the steal situation, I thought there was a very good chance the aces were good, and obviously I still had outs to improve. The raise on sixth smelled like a slowplay; I just didn't know exactly what he was slowplaying. It seemed like the most likely thing was either a big pair (AA-JJ) or some hidden trips. When he just called the 3-bet on sixth, I knew he didn't have trips. So it was either two pair (say, starting with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif in the hole) or one big pair.

I did not improve on the river and he called my bet. He had pocket kings and my hand was good.

I am trying not to be results-oriented here and I'm still not sure if 3-betting sixth street is wise. However, I think it is important to think about all the elements of the hand when hand-reading. Don't just think, he raised me on sixth street, he must have one pair beat. He was correct to think I could be betting throughout with nothing, hence raising with one pair of kings there is not a bad move. I was surprised that he called on the river without improving, but I guess we know that stud players never fold on the river, especially with a big pair, and especially in steal situations.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise on sixth smelled like a slowplay; I just didn't know exactly what he was slowplaying.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't just think, he raised me on sixth street, he must have one pair beat. He was correct to think I could be betting throughout with nothing

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you're saying, Blumpkin. I'm not at all completely averse to your raise on sixth street, it makes sense. But I do think its a close decision and the majority of the time you're likely to be behind in a lot of cases. I also like calling better due to the fact that trips (which is quite possible with his blank board and raise on sixth) likely caps against you here.

Mike Emery

[Jeffage]

Sorry I missed this thread - spending some much needed family time away from the tables (and board for the most part) this week. I would just call the 6th street raise. His board is not threatening and I think the vast majority of the time his raise on 6th (rather than 5th) will represent a holding that beats one pair of aces (and possibly quite badly, such as a trips). I did see the results, but most of the time, your reraise will simply be charging yourself to suck out (and it will possibly cost you 4 bets). I can't think of one hand he will fold to the reraise that beats yours but I can think of many he'd play this way that will be met with a cap. Overall, I call the raise and plan to check-call most rivers.

If he raises 5th instead, he is more likely to have some kinda buried pocket pair which you'd be ahead of...in this case, he made a showdown raise; he wanted to check down the river if he didn't make the ups. But you reraised, he got pissed and called, then called with one pair. So in this case you were right, the other 90% of the time the reraise on 6th seems like spewing to me against this opponent with his board not being to conducive to him having a pair and a draw or something like that.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

That is hilarious and actually made me laugh out loud. My parents think I'm weird now - not that they didn't before. But you are right, catching the flush is clearly the best line.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif Happy Thanksgiving!

Jeff

[blumpkin22]

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts on this one. I think I have been convinced that reraising 6th is a little too aggressive, and most of the time I will have the worst hand. I do think it's a very interesting hand and I think it illustrates an interesting element of psychology in seven card stud ante steal situations.