Slowplaying and check-raising overrated?

My stats over 16k hands are 14.4/8.2/3.6, so basically I play very aggressively with the hands I do play. I'm always very straightforward and if I make a hand or draw, I'm betting. I don't sit back at all.

Today I decided to go for some check-raises and slowplay some of my big hands. My results didn't seem great. My opponents never bit. Maybe I just picked some bad spots, but it seemed like every time, I would have been better off just betting and raising.

So I'm wondering, is it because I'm playing at such low limits (5/10 cent), or is it really not a good idea to slowplay that much? How do you pick out times to go for check-raises?

[MrWookie47]

Even at higher limits, 9 times out of ten (at least), you're better off just playing fast.

[Greg J]

The more you play the more you learn to apply this stuff correctly. usually it's correct to play straightforward, especially against lower quality competition.

[ArturiusX]

Do you want the simple answer or the complex answer?

[UATrewqaz]

"Slowplaying and check-raising overrated?"

Not when they work! (how's that for results oriented for ya)

You may want to post a hand or two that you are unsure of and get comments, especially if you have/ had information on the other players in the hand. I also have found it helpful to try and explain my reasoning in a given situation (why I thought slow-playing or check-raising might be a good play).

[jrz1972]

Check-raising is a very useful tool. If you work at it, it will eventually become second nature to recognize spots where you can use a well-timed c/r to protect your hand, gain value, punish an aggressive opponent, etc. Not overrated.

Slowplaying, on the other hand, is usually a bad idea, especially in loose microlimit games where people are happy to call with all kinds of garbage. There are times when it's okay, but if you never slowplayed a hand ever it probably wouldn't be much of a leak in your game. Legitimately +EV slowplays just don't come up very often. Overrated.

[ QUOTE ]
The more you play the more you learn to apply this stuff correctly. usually it's correct to play straightforward, especially against lower quality competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure many opponents at this level even realize they are behind when you c/r. Try a higher limit.

At lower limits against the average opponents, slowplaying = lost profits. Bet and re-raise strong hands.

I've been working on my check raising and have found that many of these average opponents will fold their weak hands to a CR where they would have been apt to call along if you bet out.

I also play the .05/.10 tables, and pretty much the only time I will ever check raise is when I'm trying to protect my hand and force people to cold call.

Check raising is a play based on deception, but there is no need to decieve people who play hands like Q7o from early position. They are already deceiving themselves enough. They also are barely even trying to think about what you have anyway. They are too focused on their own 2 garbage cards.

[WalkAmongUs]

I agree that playing hands fast is the way to go.

Currently I'm adjusting to 2/4. At this level I'm having to make a lot of adjustments because there are huge contrasts in my opponents. One hand I'm against Super LAGs and the next I'm against some pretty good players.

There are basically only 2 times I usually slowplay:

1) I have the absolute nuts (and pot is small): A7 in BB with a flop of AA7. Then I'll check it through and pray someone picks up anything.

2)I'm against pretty good players with a better than average hand: AQ against 1 or 2 callers on flop of AQx. I don't slowplay on the flop here though, I bet out. Then if turn is a blank I'll sometimes check in order to induce a bluff or a call on the river. I'll only check if the turn is a blank and I feel like the good players will fold if I bet.


As far as check raising goes, I've recently stepped up my flop check-raising in order to get free cards. I'm doing this more now with just mediocre hands against passive opponents. Like if I have a gutshot+overcard on the button or maybe just overcards against 2 opponents. I'm check raisin and takin a freecard.

I did this once with just an overcard and a BDFD+BDSD and I got a freecard and made my runner runner flush and took down a pot whereas I normally would have just folded.


Slowplaying and check-raising are very useful when applied in the right spots.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
There are basically only 2 times I usually slowplay:

1) I have the absolute nuts (and pot is small): A7 in BB with a flop of AA7. Then I'll check it through and pray someone picks up anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few things to think about on this hand:

1. It's very unlikely that the turn will help anybody enough to induce them to give action. You have the deck crippled. Compare this with a hand of T7 on a TT7 board. Now there are a bunch of overcards for your opponents to catch on the turn. If an A hits on the turn, for example, you might get raised.

2. You are potentially missing a gazillion bets if somebody else is in there with the case A or even better pocket 7s. That doesn't happen often, but it really sucks when you have the nuts and slowplay against a slowplayer.

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]
1. It's very unlikely that the turn will help anybody enough to induce them to give action. You have the deck crippled. Compare this with a hand of T7 on a TT7 board. Now there are a bunch of overcards for your opponents to catch on the turn. If an A hits on the turn, for example, you might get raised.

2. You are potentially missing a gazillion bets if somebody else is in there with the case A or even better pocket 7s. That doesn't happen often, but it really sucks when you have the nuts and slowplay against a slowplayer.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I should have used a different example but with number 1 I meant more if the board was suited or connected at all then I'd check and hope someone hits or picks up a flush or straight.

2) You are correct sir! Slowplaying a slowplayer sucks. But if you do this on a connected or suited board I think you're more looking for someone to hit their straight or flush.

Also, If I check the flop as a slowplay. I'm gonna bet on the turn prety much every time. One free card is all you get.

Thanks for all the responses! This is some good discussion.

Even on monster flops, I still find it hard to slowplay my hands. It's usually not likely you opponents will improve greatly by the turn, so I think usually you should still just bet the flop and hope to pick up a bet or two.

As for check-raising to get a free card, how do you do that? I don't see how it works with your position. Aren't you going to be checking on the turn infront of the person you just raised? I'd think they would probably just bet again since you checked.

I guess I can see check-raising on the turn if you check/call the flop, and hit a card on the turn. I'll try to work on that.

But on the flop, I think you're almost always better of just betting. What has happened to me a few times is this: I check-raise the flop, then the people who I check-raise become very tentative on the turn and usually fold. If I had just come out betting, they call on the turn more often. So just straight out betting in those spots seems to gain me an extra SB.

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]
As for check-raising to get a free card, how do you do that? I don't see how it works with your position. Aren't you going to be checking on the turn infront of the person you just raised? I'd think they would probably just bet again since you checked.

I guess I can see check-raising on the turn if you check/call the flop, and hit a card on the turn. I'll try to work on that.

But on the flop, I think you're almost always better of just betting. What has happened to me a few times is this: I check-raise the flop, then the people who I check-raise become very tentative on the turn and usually fold. If I had just come out betting, they call on the turn more often. So just straight out betting in those spots seems to gain me an extra SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of the time you check-raise the flop to get a FREE CARD. Getting a free card means than after you check-raise the flop, your opponents then check to you and you check behind them in order to see the river card without putting any more money into the pot.

In order for this to work, you must check-raise from late position, preferably when you have the button. That way you will be the last person to act on the turn and can check the turn card and end the action to see the river card.

if you have a good hand on the flop then betting is almost always correct. Except in certain situations discussed in SSH.

you use the free card play when you are in late position and have a hand that is probably not best right now but has a good chance to win if you hit one of your outs.

Check-raising for a free card allows you to draw to a hand for 2 small bets (your call plus your raise) instead of 1 small bet and 1 large bet (your flop call and turn call, provided someone bets). So you get to draw for 2 small bets instead of 3.

Theres a ton more that can be said but you'd do better getting SSH if you haven't yet and reading or re-reading it.

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of the time you check-raise the flop to get a FREE CARD.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a terminology issue here. And not to be a nit, but it's a fairly important one. You can RAISE the flop for a free card in position. But OP is correct, you can not check-raise from the button. By definition, as the button, you ACT LAST. Therefore, you don't do the "check" portion of the "check-raise."

Check-raise is a specific action, where you check the first time the action is to you, and then when someone who acts after you bets, you RAISE that bet. By definition, if you are in position to take a free card, you are not in position to check-raise.

Examples of times to checkraise:

*You flop a really strong hand and the preflop raiser is seated to your direct left. If you just bet out, there is a good chance the pfr will raise, facing the field with two cold, which will often fold out many opponents. If you have a vulnerable made hand, that is a desirable outcome. If you flopped a set or better, it may be better to check, let the pfr bet for you, let everyone call his bet, and then you raise, and you have trapped everyone for an extra bet on the flop.

*You are in the SB, you flopped a vulnerable made hand, like top pair, and the pfr was the button. If you are certain the button will bet if checked to, checking will allow you to raise and face everyone with 2 cold, narrowing the field for you.

[WalkAmongUs]

Sorry for the confusion. Voracious got it right. Remove the word "check" from anywhere I said "check raise" and it'll make a lot more sense.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
But on the flop, I think you're almost always better of just betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider a hand where you have K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif in BB. UG raises, 3 players coldcall, SB calls, and you call. 6 to flop for 12SB.
Flop comes A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

What's your play? Consider the likely action here. Consider pot equity and how your EV changes with each caller.

Ok yeah that makes sense now, I was wondering how it's possible to check-raise from the button. O_o