Two big schools: Any comparison studies?

There are two schools of late stages strategy, pushers and limpers.

Here is a typical debate
http://www.thepokerforum.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=25;t=000014;p=

From my observation,

Pushers: Pf people, 80% of the winning population, probably more math oriented, most likely have a football star avatar.

Limpers: Flop people, fans of Negreanu, limp AK depending on situation, minority shouted at by pushers, lurking not posting in most forums, most likely doesn’t have an avatar.

I have tested these two schools but my results of course are inconclusive.

Are there any statistical studies, polls, math analysis or simulation out there comparing these two schools? Or is it only a matter of style?

If there are no studies, perhaps people like eastbay can do some simulations?

Advance thanks.

[handsome]

Your first post reeks of newbness. Limping in the late stages is just horrible.

[applejuicekid]

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Limpers: Flop people, fans of Negreanu, limp AK depending on situation

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't even know bad players played like this.

My main point is not to debate here but hey

Why would you want to raise/push AK if you know there will be at least 2-4 lucky gambling callers and no folding equity? Raising AK for value just doesn’t cut it.

And there are much more oppotunities to outplay the opponent postflop.

[applejuicekid]

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Raising AK for value just doesn’t cut it.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I think you need to run some of those simulations you were talking about.

Tell me what's the winning % of AK against 4 callers.

[pokerlaw]

keep using the limper school of thought if you hate money.

[applejuicekid]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me what's the winning % of AK against 4 callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

About 30%

Tell me what late game tourney you are playing that has 4 callers calling a push.

[ChoicestHops]

I like the idea of the limping school. It makes the game profitable for me.

30%? I thought that is against one opponent.

I did mention DEPENDING ON SITUATION, didn't I?

[applejuicekid]

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30%? I thought that is against one opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

You thought wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
I did mention DEPENDING ON SITUATION, didn't I?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, however bringing up situations that never occur doesn't really help anyone. Not to mention it is still probably correct to push in your absurd situation.

Where do you get that 30% figure?

And I specifically did not write "pushing" into 4 callers. Though it was my fault not mentioning "raising 3bb" by assuming that you think I am slightly better than a very bad player. Don't put motives and words into my mouth.

[Davey]

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Where do you get that 30% figure?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can try PokerStove or any number of other calculators out there.

[eastbay]

I seem to be a little more circumspect about this than most.

Certainly there are situations where limping is just wrong. But it may not be as wrong in as many situations as many may think. I'm just not sure.

Just because we all know that a pushing style can win a lot of money, that doesn't preclude the possibility that a style that involves more limping can't also be a winning strategy if properly constructed and executed. I suspect that a more limp-y style may be more fundamentally exploitable and therefore may only be effective against certain kinds of opponents, but that's just general speculation.

One thing I can say with some confidence is that we know a lot more about the pushing style because it is more amenable to a theoretical analysis. It is inherently less complex than a limping style that involves a lot of postflop decisions. So we can have more confidence about our understanding of the pushing style, than we can about a limping style, just based on math-y sorts of reasoning.

Bottom line: IMO, there is a lot of unexplored territory in SnG play (on a theoretical level), and I'm not one to jump to conclusions about what other styles other than push/fold might also be profitable. I don't have any simulation data or analysis to provide at the moment.

As for my personal advocacy, I like a mostly push/fold style because I like the fact that you can gain confidence in your decisions based on the relatively tractable analysis you can do within that style. As a default, it's definitely the place to start, IMO.

I think the next few years are going to show some dramatic improvements in the theoretical understanding of no-limit and tournament no-limit poker as this problem starts to get increasing attention in the academic and mathematically sophisticated entrepreneurial worlds. We may be in for some surprises about what kinds of strong strategies exist; time will tell.

eastbay

[ilya]

The question is my friend, do you want to be in a school of fish....or the School! of! Raaawk!??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[applejuicekid]

[ QUOTE ]
And I specifically did not write "pushing" into 4 callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I thought we were talking about pushers vs. limpers in late game sit n gos. However, not raising AK preflop when 4 people will call is rarely correct.

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Though it was my fault not mentioning "raising 3bb" by assuming that you think I am slightly better than a very bad player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again I thought we were talking about late game strategies so why would I assume you would be raising 3bb instead of pushing. I have never seen you play so I have no idea if you are a good or bad player. I thought you were just arguing anyways.

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Don't put motives and words into my mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I did, but if you think otherwise, I apologize.

[johnny005]

I have been playing SNg's steady for about a year 8 tables... I used to never limp I'n the late stages of the game... I moved to 3-6 (6max) for about 3 months and I'm now playing $50 (6man) Sng's ... I like to limp early in the tourneys when I see there are a few super aggros so that I can fold when they raise me... Then when the blinds are high I limp with High pocket pairs and hammer them when they raise my limp again... Do I suck cause I do this????.. Must be the case..

Anyways my point is this when your down to 2,3,4 players in these things You should only be limping as a trap but If you havent beeen doing much limping early they are going to smell something fishy when you go all-in every hand and then you limp out of nowhere...

LIMPING IN THE SMALL BLIND?

Another spot Where I think Lmping is ok Is the small blind.. 3 handed and heads up I've been tinkering with a few things that Harrington said in his new book. Limping with my good hands 1/3 of the time raising 2/3, when I say good hand I mean anything in the top 40%.. And I've been trying reversing that with my premium hands(AA,KK,QQ) 1/3 raise and 2/3 call. If your playing against a player who will raise your SB everytime you limp this strategy doesnt work to well. But once I find out he likes to raise my limps I just Push/Fold until next decent hand.

The only Problem That I see with using limping as part of your strategy is its not as easy to do while 4-8 tabling because you actually have to make some decisions after the flop...

All in all I've found mixing up my limp has really improved my ROI over the last 1000 Sng's.

Any thoughts?

Go eastbay go!

You and Daliman are invaluable.

Btw, who said I am from a limper school? You people keep making assumptions. I VISITED both schools and created MY OWN hybrid style. I do this to maximize my income UNLIKE some people I know.

[Gramps]

[ QUOTE ]
Are there any statistical studies, polls, math analysis or simulation out there comparing these two schools? Or is it only a matter of style?

If there are no studies, perhaps people like eastbay can do some simulations?


[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, I have some calculus homework that I need somebody to do. Eastbay, can you hook me up when you're done with above simulations?

New angle, installing it into wetware.

[The Yugoslavian]

This debate is dumb....I am going to help everyone out.

Blonde is for tight aggros | brunette is for loose aggros.

http://www.iseekstuff.com/albums/album59/michelle_marsh1.jpg

Yugoslav

I forgot to add the MAN in my list.

Most invaluable aggros on the planet by ranking:
1. The Yugoslavian
2. eastbay
3. Daliman

[jon462]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are there any statistical studies, polls, math analysis or simulation out there comparing these two schools? Or is it only a matter of style?

If there are no studies, perhaps people like eastbay can do some simulations?


[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, I have some calculus homework that I need somebody to do. Eastbay, can you hook me up when you're done with above simulations?

[/ QUOTE ]
lol, I also need someone to do my taxes.

[pius]

Heard

[Freudian]

I doubt you will see Negreanu limp very much when he has as shallow a stack as you normally have in a SnG. With very deep stacks I can see trying to outplay your opponents postflop, especially if you are as strong at it as he is.

[pius]

If we are talking party sng's or stars speed sng's then I think you're right. For other structures I think he might limp a lot.

Also even in party sng's he might still limp a lot in the early stages. And he probably would stop playing them once he realised how quickly it turned into pushbot strategy.