Newb wrap question

[gol4pro]

Is this an easy call? I honestly had no clue, so I folded.

I was pretty sure it was TT vs KK.

***** Hand History for Game 3079405855 *****
$25 PL Omaha - Tuesday, November 22, 21:28:42 EDT 2005
Table Table 66769 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: hckram ( $1.70 )
Seat 2: pokar_pony ( $37.98 )
Seat 3: briachek ( $51.95 )
Seat 5: rpeiper ( $29.75 )
Seat 6: wsfha ( $31.10 )
Seat 7: nonpoisonous ( $16.99 )
Seat 9: IUfishnnuts ( $23.85 )
Seat 8: daisymae32 ( $35.07 )
Seat 10: Launagis ( $25.70 )
Seat 4: Ryan_Grant ( $26.20 )
pokar_pony posts small blind [$0.10].
briachek is sitting out.
Ryan_Grant posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to pokar_pony [ Qh As Ac Jd ]
>You have options at Table 65575 Table!.
briachek has left the table.
>You have options at Table 65940 Table!.
rpeiper calls [$0.25].
wsfha folds.
nonpoisonous calls [$0.25].
daisymae32 folds.
IUfishnnuts folds.
>You have options at Table 65801 Table!.
Launagis calls [$0.25].
hckram folds.
>You have options at Table 65575 Table!.
>You have options at Table 65080 Table!.
>You have options at Table 65387 Table!.
>You have options at Table 65940 Table!.
pokar_pony raises [$0.40].
>You have options at Table 65575 Table!.
>You have options at Table 65209 (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 65080 Table!.
>You have options at Table 65387 Table!.
Ryan_Grant folds.
rpeiper calls [$0.25].
nonpoisonous folds.
Launagis calls [$0.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ks, 5c, Td ]
pokar_pony bets [$1.90].
rpeiper raises [$7.60].
Launagis is all-In [$25.20]
>You have options at Table 65940 Table!.
Ryan_Grant: ::))
>You have options at Table 65801 Table!.
>You have options at Table 64984 Table!.
rpeiper: hmmm
Ryan_Grant: cmon dumb ass
pokar_pony folds.
>You have options at Table 65575 Table!.
>You have options at Table 65387 Table!.
rpeiper: I have a set of 10's
>You have options at Table 65458 Table!.
rpeiper: If you have K's I am paying you off
rpeiper calls [$17.60].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4c ]
rpeiper shows [ 4h, Ts, Th, 6h ] three of a kind, tens.
Launagis shows [ Kd, Kc, Qd, 6c ] a flush, king high.
Launagis wins $51.60 from the main pot with a flush, king high.

[Big Dave D]

Long ago I published a wrap nomenclature, which bears repeating in such circumstances:

English wrap - 13 outs plus
American/Canadian wrap - 8 outs or less
Swedish/Nordic/Cold Country wrap - 4 outs or less

gl

dd

So, what do you call the nebulous 9-12 out straight draws...

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
Long ago I published a wrap nomenclature, which bears repeating in such circumstances:

English wrap - 13 outs plus
American/Canadian wrap - 8 outs or less
Swedish/Nordic/Cold Country wrap - 4 outs or less

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the 8-12 out "wraps" what can we call those? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Anyway, I think Dave is saying that your "wrap" isn't so great. You are blocked at the high end so you really don't have that big of a wrap. Also you don't even have any backdoor flushes. Fold looks good.

It actually turns out that against opponents specific hands you had a slightly +EV situation cause there sidecards sucked and only blocked one of your outs. But this is probably your best case scenario unless villians are complete donks playing on hold'em hand values. At best you have a slightly positive situation with a lot of varaince. You could easily have been in a worse situation here if their sidecards were coordinated. Also you could have been up against one set and another "wrapish" hand like yours which would be even worse.

[RoundTower]

Even if you were against only one opponent with top set it would be correct to call. You have 12 nut outs twice. I don't believe I would fold this hand on the flop no matter what the action.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you were against only one opponent with top set it would be correct to call. You have 12 nut outs twice. I don't believe I would fold this hand on the flop no matter what the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a big mistake, especially heads-up. With the OP's hand, heads up he would have been a 65/35 dog. If the Villian had something like KKQJds instead of KKQ6ds, the OP would have scooped less than 15% of the time heads up.

The OP's flop play was fine. Had he seen the hands face-up, a call would have been appropriate, but there is nothing wrong with the lay-down here.

[jhall23]

Chimi already covered it, but HU against Top set you should fold. 12 out's twice isn't enough overlay when you don't have a ton of dead money in the pot. Remember that even if you make your straight your opponent will have at least his boat re-draws so you can hit your straight and still lose.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1363331
pokenum -o qh as ac jd - kd kc qd 6c -- ks 5c td
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ks 5c Td
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac Jd Qh 273 33.29 541 65.98 6 0.73 0.337
Kc 6c Kd Qd 541 65.98 273 33.29 6 0.73 0.663

[RoundTower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if you were against only one opponent with top set it would be correct to call. You have 12 nut outs twice. I don't believe I would fold this hand on the flop no matter what the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a big mistake, especially heads-up. With the OP's hand, heads up he would have been a 65/35 dog. If the Villian had something like KKQJds instead of KKQ6ds, the OP would have scooped less than 15% of the time heads up.

The OP's flop play was fine. Had he seen the hands face-up, a call would have been appropriate, but there is nothing wrong with the lay-down here.

[/ QUOTE ]

65-35 means you have to call 1 pot bet or raise for all your chips. Yes he could be against top set with a huge redraw, but those times should be balanced out by the times he is up against a similar wrap and the aces make him a 70% favourite or better.

[ QUOTE ]
65-35 means you have to call 1 pot bet or raise for all your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

If those were your case chips, then calling a pot-bet as a 65/35 is OK. Your equity still sucks, especially if it was HU to the flop meaning that you are putting in close to 50% of the chips and only expecting to get back 35% of the pot. However, unless you are short-stacked, this situation isn't going to arise that frequently.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes he could be against top set with a huge redraw, but those times should be balanced out by the times he is up against a similar wrap and the aces make him a 70% favourite or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

You were the one that said a call should be made against one opponent with top set. Obviously, opening up the range of hands that your opponent has changes things, but I was simply responding to your statement and just trying to point out that all top sets are not created equal.

[Big Dave D]

Actually I was just trying to b amusing /images/graemlins/smile.gif

For 3 to 1 action, Im happy to get broke in these spots, especially if I think my foes are tight - eg they both have sets.

gl

dd

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I was just trying to b amusing /images/graemlins/smile.gif

For 3 to 1 action, Im happy to get broke in these spots, especially if I think my foes are tight - eg they both have sets.

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

In case it wasn't obvious, you succeeded, I was amused.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
Long ago I published a wrap nomenclature, which bears repeating in such circumstances:

English wrap - 13 outs plus
American/Canadian wrap - 8 outs or less
Swedish/Nordic/Cold Country wrap - 4 outs or less

dd

[/ QUOTE ]


The Big Dave D – 20 outs
The Dave D – 17 outs
English wrap - 13 outs
American/Canadian wrap - 8 outs or less
Swedish/Nordic/Cold Country wrap - 4 outs or less

FYP

[boscoboy]

Is this an easy call? I honestly had no clue, so I folded.

might i recommend you don't 10 table as you try too learn a new game. you are holding up this game as well as 9 others, and by your own admission you dont have a clue? you are being rude

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Long ago I published a wrap nomenclature, which bears repeating in such circumstances:

English wrap - 13 outs plus
American/Canadian wrap - 8 outs or less
Swedish/Nordic/Cold Country wrap - 4 outs or less

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

What is even funnier about those descriptions Dave, it that so many players seem to play the worst ones faster and just call along with the truly good ones.