50+5 Hand w/ 2+2'r...argument insued

[ZBTHorton]

Here is the hand..I'll post info after.

#Game No : 3077918067
***** Hand History for Game 3077918067 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:17633824 Level:9 Blinds(250/500) - Tuesday, November 22, 16:49:54 EDT 2005
Table Table 67982 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 7: XxTabiasxX ( $5270 )
Seat 4: CANDB7 ( $2710 )
Seat 9: LuckyJoker21 ( $760 )
Seat 8: DeBBster ( $1260 )
Trny:17633824 Level:9
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to CANDB7 [ 8h Jd ]
LuckyJoker21 folds.
CANDB7 folds.
XxTabiasxX raises [1650].
DeBBster is all-In [760]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 8c, 5s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
XxTabiasxX shows [ Qd, Qh ] three of a kind, queens.
DeBBster shows [ Ac, Th ] a straight, ten to ace.
XxTabiasxX wins 640 chips from side pot #1 with three of a kind, queens.
DeBBster wins 2520 chips from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.

Game #3077919583 starts.

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I am personally not involved in the hand, as I obviously folded. The player w/ Queens appeared to be solid and turned out to be a 2+2'r. As soon as the hand ended, he told the short stack how 'stupid' his call was.

I jokingly told him to be quiet(because I never talk crap to newbies, and even though I didn't disagree with his call, I thought that player was weak.)

He argued back how stupid the call was. From what I understand, here was his viewpoint:

Him: He'd rather have the small stack fold, in hopes he could continue to blind steal through the rest of the bubble and build a huge stack.

Me: I see the logic behind this, but it is extremely flawed. I'd much rather have the massive chip lead and play those chips myself, than have the small stack double up other players and leave myself with less chip equity. It seems to me, that as a big stack on a table, ALMOST anytime I can get in a 70/30 situation all in PF, I should be extremely happy with where I stand.

Thoughts?

[pineapple888]

As big stack, I'd be kind of indifferent here between a fold and a 70-30 advantage. Either way is good for me (although losing the 70-30 isn't so great).

As small stack, I'd hate to bust out here, but the blinds are so high and I'm not far enough ahead of the shorty that I can fold.

I'm afraid I didn't quite follow your argument, but I hope this is the feedback you wanted. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[RobGW]

Well the caller does have almost half his stack in the pot. If he folds he is tied with the small stack with very little room for manuevering. He has to hope the other small stack busts before him which is far from guaranteed. I guess he should just fold and hope to squeak into the money? With AT and the pot odds he is getting and the fact that big stack could be pushing a wide range here I would call this everytime. The OP is just mad because he lost the hand.

[ZBTHorton]

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As big stack, I'd be kind of indifferent here between a fold and a 70-30 advantage. Either way is good for me (although losing the 70-30 isn't so great).



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I don't understand how you could even be indifferent. With the blinds this high, how much better of an opportunity are you waiting to have?

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
Well the caller does have almost half his stack in the pot. If he folds he is tied with the small stack with very little room for manuevering. He has to hope the other small stack busts before him which is far from guaranteed. I guess he should just fold and hope to squeak into the money? With AT and the pot odds he is getting and the fact that big stack could be pushing a wide range here I would call this everytime. The OP is just mad because he lost the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I initially thought he was claiming it to be a bad call b/c of how short the other short-stack was. But he wasn't. He really thought he wanted him to fold, we argued the whole way down to a push-bot HU finish about it. He even told me to read more of the 'board'.

[pineapple888]

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As big stack, I'd be kind of indifferent here between a fold and a 70-30 advantage. Either way is good for me (although losing the 70-30 isn't so great).



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I don't understand how you could even be indifferent. With the blinds this high, how much better of an opportunity are you waiting to have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? We're talking about the big stack here. Opponent folds, I get some chips, and the bubble continues. Opponent calls, I have a good shot at getting more chips, but then the bubble would end, and meanwhile I could lose chips also.

[Melchiades]

I want a call with my queens.

[ZBTHorton]

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As big stack, I'd be kind of indifferent here between a fold and a 70-30 advantage. Either way is good for me (although losing the 70-30 isn't so great).



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I don't understand how you could even be indifferent. With the blinds this high, how much better of an opportunity are you waiting to have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? We're talking about the big stack here. Opponent folds, I get some chips, and the bubble continues. Opponent calls, I have a good shot at getting more chips, but then the bubble would end, and meanwhile I could lose chips also.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that we're talking about the big stack. I don't understand being 'indifferent'. I am begging for him to call, and I am DEFINITELY begging him to call if I know he has A10.

[Slim Pickens]

XxTabiasxX is a dick in the chatbox. He called me a fish after he called my push with JJ and my KJ sucked out a straight on him. On another table we were both playing at the time, I told him to take his bad beats like a man and stop being such a whiney little turd. Two minutes later I pick up JJ from MP with him on the BB. I type some trash talk into the chatbox and push. He calls with 99 and rivers the third 9. I haven't heard anything from him since.

Anyway Tabias, stop sucking at life.

Oh, and without reading his argument, I'm going to guess it's some crackpot justification for why the call with AT was a bad idea getting 2:1 on your money against someone pushing a lot of hands.

[Melchiades]

The only reason he didn't want this call is because he got sucked out on.

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
XxTabiasxX is a dick in the chatbox. He called me a fish after he called my push with JJ and my KJ sucked out a straight on him. On another table we were both playing at the time, I told him to take his bad beats like a man and stop being suck a whiney little turd. Two minutes later I pick up JJ from MP with him on the BB. I type some trash talk into the chatbox and push. He calls with 99 and rivers the third 9. I haven't heard anything from him since.

Anyway Tabias, stop sucking at life.

Oh, and without reading his argument, I'm going to guess it's some crackpot justification for why the call with AT was a bad idea getting 2:1 on your money against someone pushing a lot of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah. Okay. Thanks. =)

[pineapple888]

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As big stack, I'd be kind of indifferent here between a fold and a 70-30 advantage. Either way is good for me (although losing the 70-30 isn't so great).



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how you could even be indifferent. With the blinds this high, how much better of an opportunity are you waiting to have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? We're talking about the big stack here. Opponent folds, I get some chips, and the bubble continues. Opponent calls, I have a good shot at getting more chips, but then the bubble would end, and meanwhile I could lose chips also.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that we're talking about the big stack. I don't understand being 'indifferent'. I am begging for him to call, and I am DEFINITELY begging him to call if I know he has A10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez, guys. Fine, here's the math.

Folds, you win $750.

Calls, you are 70% to win 1510, and 30% to lose 1260, equals $679.

Still like the call?

[Melchiades]

I see your point. But if he calls an loses you are ITM. Granted you will not bust out forth here more or less no matter what.

But your right, I don't like the call as much anymore.

[microbet]

Edit: I guess I won't be too inflamatory. Let's just say I'm not fond of Tabias' chat.

[FieryJustice]

I am really a nice person...Also, you'd be suprised how whining can make the people who just lucksacked my chips from me donate them right back. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ZBTHorton]

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As big stack, I'd be kind of indifferent here between a fold and a 70-30 advantage. Either way is good for me (although losing the 70-30 isn't so great).



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how you could even be indifferent. With the blinds this high, how much better of an opportunity are you waiting to have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? We're talking about the big stack here. Opponent folds, I get some chips, and the bubble continues. Opponent calls, I have a good shot at getting more chips, but then the bubble would end, and meanwhile I could lose chips also.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that we're talking about the big stack. I don't understand being 'indifferent'. I am begging for him to call, and I am DEFINITELY begging him to call if I know he has A10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez, guys. Fine, here's the math.

Folds, you win $750.

Calls, you are 70% to win 1510, and 30% to lose 1260, equals $679.

Still like the call?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he folds, you win 500?

[pineapple888]

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I see your point. But if he calls an loses you are ITM. Granted you will not bust out forth here more or less no matter what.

But your right, I don't like the call as much anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, you'd rather not be in the money quite yet, to continue exploiting the bubble. (Although it'll burst soon anyway.)

[ZBTHorton]

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I am really a nice person...Also, you'd be suprised how whining can make the people who just lucksacked my chips from me donate them right back. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I really didn't get upset at all honestly man. I think I was more frustrated because you seemed so sure of your strategy and I didn't get it. Combine that w/ your good play through the SNG, it made me re-think what I was saying for sure. Although, I still think I'm right. =)

[pineapple888]

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As big stack, I'd be kind of indifferent here between a fold and a 70-30 advantage. Either way is good for me (although losing the 70-30 isn't so great).



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how you could even be indifferent. With the blinds this high, how much better of an opportunity are you waiting to have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? We're talking about the big stack here. Opponent folds, I get some chips, and the bubble continues. Opponent calls, I have a good shot at getting more chips, but then the bubble would end, and meanwhile I could lose chips also.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that we're talking about the big stack. I don't understand being 'indifferent'. I am begging for him to call, and I am DEFINITELY begging him to call if I know he has A10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez, guys. Fine, here's the math.

Folds, you win $750.

Calls, you are 70% to win 1510, and 30% to lose 1260, equals $679.

Still like the call?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he folds, you win 500?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus SB of 250.

[FieryJustice]

If I had it my way, I would never get called on the bubble again. If I have the big stack on the bubble and people are willing to fold to death, PLEASE dont let thhem call me at all unless it is my AA against A2 or some [censored]. Like I said, i'd much rather pushbot the table to wherre I have 8k chips than take the 6k chips now.

[ZBTHorton]

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As big stack, I'd be kind of indifferent here between a fold and a 70-30 advantage. Either way is good for me (although losing the 70-30 isn't so great).



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how you could even be indifferent. With the blinds this high, how much better of an opportunity are you waiting to have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? We're talking about the big stack here. Opponent folds, I get some chips, and the bubble continues. Opponent calls, I have a good shot at getting more chips, but then the bubble would end, and meanwhile I could lose chips also.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that we're talking about the big stack. I don't understand being 'indifferent'. I am begging for him to call, and I am DEFINITELY begging him to call if I know he has A10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez, guys. Fine, here's the math.

Folds, you win $750.

Calls, you are 70% to win 1510, and 30% to lose 1260, equals $679.

Still like the call?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he folds, you win 500?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus SB of 250.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you include your own chips in your equation. That's fine. But then the rest of your numbers are off.

Because then your trying to win 2520 chips.

[ilya]

If someone wants to be 80% to 1, I say that's his business.

[ZBTHorton]

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If I had it my way, I would never get called on the bubble again. If I have the big stack on the bubble and people are willing to fold to death, PLEASE dont let thhem call me at all unless it is my AA against A2 or some [censored]. Like I said, i'd much rather pushbot the table to wherre I have 8k chips than take the 6k chips now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I may begin to understand this more if the blinds were lower. But with the blinds that high, it's so much of a pushbot crapshoot anyway...I could never pass up a 70/30.

[Melchiades]

Another point though. My instincts tell me to call here with AT when 500 of my 1260 is in the BB. Is that wrong?

[ZBTHorton]

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Another point though. My instincts tell me to call here with AT when 500 of my 1260 is in the BB. Is that wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this was covered in one of the earlier posts as another reason to call.

[ QUOTE ]
Another point though. My instincts tell me to call here with AT when 500 of my 1260 is in the BB. Is that wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

not if you want any chance of finishing higher than 3rd... easy call...

[microbet]

Easy call. I'm sure it was quite easy to tell Tabias has a huge range here.

[pineapple888]

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If he folds, you win 500?

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Plus SB of 250.

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If you include your own chips in your equation. That's fine. But then the rest of your numbers are off.

Because then your trying to win 2520 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! I thought he was the button. Sorry about that.

So you lose a little less when you lose, works out to +754cEV, vs. 750 for a fold. Still doesn't change my argument that this is basically neutral.

[ZBTHorton]

And of course, this is also assuming we build no more +EV by having more chips.

[raptor517]

im not even gonna bother reading this thread. its the easiest problem in the world. debbster has an AUTOCALL here. luckyjoker can eat an ENTIRE round of blinds before it gets back around to debb again, who will be down to 510 and lucky has 10. after posting a bb he deb will have 10 as well as lucky, and it will be a toss up. i would MUCH rather get my chips in against jcardshark who i know is shoving damn near any 2 and i ahve AT. also, he runs worse than anyone so i can always suck out. holla

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
I am really a nice person...Also, you'd be suprised how whining can make the people who just lucksacked my chips from me donate them right back. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

...or make you more likely to call their pushes with 99?

[Slim Pickens]

He can't run that badly. We're tied 1-1 in extreme bubble suckouts against each other.