barry tannenbaum hand from recent card player

[mike l.]

anyone care to discuss it? i think he misses an easy raise on the turn (and fold if sb reraises, but 4 bet if player behind him 3 bets) and a great chance to charge a flush draw (no one had one, but it seems like a likely hand for mp player and/or sb).

as for his flop read it looks a lot at first like sb has JJ, but AA coming to life again is also very possible as is AKc or even AQc.

the river is sweet though. it's funny where it dawns on him he has sb beat because she starts worrying mp has trips. i was cracking up reading that on the beach today.

all in all pretty great article as was the one i read awhile ago about some 80-160 hand he played.

[mike l.]

http://cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13362

[Philuva]

I would raise the turn, but:
1. only call a 3-bet from the button.
2. still call a 3 bet from SB.

I think the pot is just too big to lay this hand down at this point as overpairs, flush-draws with a pair and lower sets could be playing it the same way as a set of J's.

I do love his river play in this hand.

[Lee Jones]

The river play is indeed brilliant, and reflects a strong belief of mine that most people act weak when they're weak and strong when they're strong - no matter what Mike Caro says. When she mumbles about the third 5, that's exactly what she means.

I agree (with Philluva?) that folding the set on the turn is unthinkable. As we saw from the results, both Barry's opponents played the hand in kind of a nutty way. There's no telling what would have happened had Barry raised the turn, but he had the field in a 3-out pot. Given that one is unwilling to fold to a third bet, and that the woman has played the hand so far like she really does have JJ, then I think you need to get to the river and a showdown.

Staying alert enough to pick up the extra call-re-raise on the river is just world class poker.

Regards, Lee

[Tommy Angelo]

When I was in Vegas I went golfing with Barry and The Babe and afterwards we had lunch in the clubhouse. Barry said he was working on an article about an interesting hand. Would we like to hear about it? Of course!

He told us the 66 hand and I was on the edge of my seat the whole way. It's really too bad that Barry's voice and inflections can't make their way onto a page. He is quite a fine and funny story teller.

I agree with Lee that weak means weak more often than it means strong. And it's not too hard to tell which players do it the other way around. It's the ones who look like they think they are being watched.


Tommy

[pokerbear]

Hi. First, I have no idea who this "Angelo" guy is. I assume he is some sort of name-dropper. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

About the hand: I gave very serious thought to raising the turn. If I later in the article said I rivered a six and beat her JJ, how many of you would be writing that I should have raised the turn? I still do not know why Rita raised the 4 bets with QQ after not raising the
three bets earlier when she had a chance. There is no way I am going to fold this hand, there is no chance Mario (or Rita) will fold a flush draw for any number of bets at this point, so I might be giving up a tad of equity by calling (or I might be saving it), but I cannot change the winner.

On the river, I would have raised even if Rita did not mumble about fives. If she had JJ, she would be putting in another raise here. She she didn't, I had to.

I really appreciate you folks reading my articles, and even discussing them.

BarryT
Oh, Tommy golfed very well that day (I suck), and has a wonderful CD of poker songs.

[Lee Jones]

Is it possible that Rita call-reraised with the intent of causing exactly what happened? She terrified you. I don't know Rita [1], so maybe she's not capable of this play, but try this on:

All this action breaks loose on the flop and she has an overpair in an already-big pot. She thinks, "Hmmm. I really need to get to showdown with this big hand. And I wonder if Barry and/or Mario are getting jiggy with AJ or a flush draw. If I unleash a raise at this point, it screams monster. Maybe they'll settle down on the big streets. Also, after I've acted up like this, if a third club comes and somebody raises, they mean it, and I can hit the silk."

In fact, we've seen very similar thinking from Tommy "Ladies' Tees" Angelo.

Or maybe I'm just nuts.

Regards, Lee

[1] Except as a meter-maid

[mike l.]

"If I later in the article said I rivered a six and beat her JJ, how many of you would be writing that I should have raised the turn?"

some of us might, including me. we're not big on results here. we're big on playing hands correctly (not that we do very often).

"I still do not know why Rita raised the 4 bets with QQ after not raising the three bets earlier when she had a chance."

it is strange. maybe it took her awhile to figure out that her overpair was probably good because she read you as unlikely to limp utg w/ JJ, 66, or 22. so perhaps she put you on AJ (as you mention in the article) and him on flush draw or worse J.

"There is no way I am going to fold this hand"

im not sure this is correct. if you raise the turn, mario cold calls, and then rita makes it 3 bets it seems like a pretty easy fold unless she would play AA this way (doesnt sound like it given her profile). that line of a turn raise gives you the chance to maximize if youre ahead, but lose the least if youre drawing to one out.

great to see you posting here. there's a funny double call-reraise hand i posted below, maybe youll have a second to check it out.

[pokerbear]

Hi, Lee: Yes, you are nuts. Not only is that incredibly fanciful thinking, but it aassumes she knows how the others wil react to her bluff call-reraise.

I know I am dealing with assumed names here, but I will disclose that Rita was not Jennifer Harmon.

BarryT

[skp]

I don't know that one needs to be as skillful as Jennifer to pull off this move. I remember doing the exact same thing a while ago i.e. raise to *reduce* my overall investment.

I forget all the gory details but essentially, I was on a draw and in between a very good player and a maniac. The flop was capped with the other guys doing all the raising. The turn was a blank. The very good player bet and it's obvious to me that he is on an overpair. I also felt that it was obvious to him that I had a flush draw based on the flop action.

I decided to raise the VGP's bet on the turn. I was hoping that VGP would then put me on a possible set and not 3 bet (if maniac just coldcalls or unthinkably folds) or not 4 bet (if maniac three bets). Perhaps better yet, maniac might 3 bet and VGP might fold (though unlikely).

On the other hand, I felt that if I just called the turn bet, the maniac was sure to keep raising and that VGP would just follow suit to charge me the max.

In any event, it turned out that maniac just coldcalled and then VGP just called. I cannot say for sure that my raise was the sole reason why the action slowed down but I think it played a big part. But I can say for sure that the damned flush card never came on the river..heh

[pokerbear]

Mike: I am not saying a raise on turn is a bad play. You do, after all, have the number 2 nuts (practically). But raising on the turn and folding to a reraise sounds to me like a classic "shrimp cocktail fold". That being the case, I prefer to call. But it is far from clear cut.

BarryT

[pokerbear]

Hi, skp: With all due respect (and I do have a lot of respect for you), the tortured multi-level logic expounded by Lee to create a misconception of top set by producing a call-reraise sequence on the flop is a far cry from raising the turn with a draw. My previous article discussed this a bit.

BarryT

[Lee Jones]

"Tortured multi-level logic" is it? /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

I thought this was typical thinking for 30-60 players. I thought sowing FUD among your opponents was one of the prime directives of winning poker.

Regards, Lee

[mike l.]

"I thought this was typical thinking for 30-60 players."

thank god no. obviously some players are capable of it, but that would require that their opponents are also thinking on that level (or the level just below i guess) and could make a FTOP error based on such a subtle complex read. it's still mainly just a game of pounding the fish with stronger hands and stronger betting just like 15-30, just like 6-12.

[ACBob]

Good stuff.

Which is why this/these forums provide us all value.

Situations or decisions we and 87% of the rest of the thinking players would do is skewed by the thinking and actions of the other half of the players.(Thank you Yogi)

Bob Lewis