Straight but the flush draw gets there...

[MuckerFish]

I figure I've sucked enough free education from you guys, and it's my turn to start contributing. I'll try to post one or two of my more thought provoking hands each week. Hope it helps the forum a bit.
(The site I play at isn't supported by the converter, I'll try to re-create the format as best as possible)

200NL, 9 handed
Button: 238
SB: 237.25
BB (Hero): 278.5
UTG: 117.5
UTG+1 (Villian) : 249.25
UTG+2 255.39
MP1: 90.90

Preflop; Hero dealt 9 /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls, Villian calls, UTG+2 calls, UTG+3 calls, folds to me, I check. 5 players, pot=10.5

Flop: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero bets 12, 1 fold, villian calls, MP1 calls. 3 players, pot=47

Turn Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero bet 65, Villian calls, MP folds. Pot= 175

River: 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero??

No significant reads on villian, haven't seen him get out of line in the short time at the table.
The flush getting there was worrisome. Does open pushing the river have enough fold equity against a non-nut flush? Does it lose too much value from 2 pair/over pair/sets? If I block for 80 or so, I'd get queasy if he comes over the top, leaving me having to call 120 to win about 350.

All comments appreciated. Thanks!

[beavens]

a blocking bet on the river and folding to a push seems like the best play - do you think he'd chase a flush all the way down though??

1/2? pot flop and turn, c/c reasonable bet on river?

[CaptainNoBeard]

for what it's worth, i don't like the flop overbet. just pot it and hope a set raises.

[4_2_it]

You played it fine till now. Block the river, but I think you have to call his push without a read. He may have been chasing the straight. More likely he has two pair.

[fathertime]

I'm check/calling the river, which allows him to bluff the flush and straight card. If he does have the flush, he'll want to get paid off and so he will probably make a callable value bet.

I'd like to hear your thoughts and others on whether this is a good spot to push the turn?

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]

I'd like to hear your thoughts and others on whether this is a good spot to push the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

A push is such a large over bet that only a set or a straight stays with you. I like the pot sized bet because it prices out draws and does not pot commit hero.

I don't like checking the river because worse hands (that would call a blocking bet) will just check through while hands that have you beat will always bet (and your intent is to call).

[Hattifnatt]

I definitely think a blocking bet of about 80 is the best play. If he had chased with something like 98 (pair+straightdraw) he probably calls. Two pairs and sets might call as well but should had probably folded to a full pot bet or a push.

If he pushes I think you can safetly fold.

I prefer a check and call of a moderate bet on this river because he could so easily over value his straight.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer a check and call of a moderate bet on this river because he could so easily over value his straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

This wins you the least and loses you the most.

[fathertime]

I know it is a big overbet but I get called on the turn by draws frequently enough that I wonder whether this is a good spot to push.

You may lose some value against worse hands that will make a crying call but I think you gain against his hand range:

1. If you bet river and he pushes, there is a very good chance he has the flush. I hate not getting to showdown here and will call against most players.
2. If you bet he will probably fold all hands except for a smaller straight and a flush.

And so a bet here folds a worse hand and allows a better hand to push.

But if you check

1. he may bet a worse hand to represent the board (a lot of players will bet when checked to)
2. he may bet two pair, either because he thinks it best or because he thinks you may fold to the flush scare card
3. he will bet a straight
4. he will bet a flush

And so checking allows you a chance of making more money against his hand range.

[4_2_it]

You make some excellent points, but very few players are capable of betting that river with anything worse than a 9 high straight. However, I think players with sets and 2 pr will call a value bet here which is where you make your money.

If you get pushed I think you still have to make a crying call unless you know that villain is a bona fide chase no matter the cost player. Most chasers fold to a pot sized turn bet if they havn't caught a piece of the flop.

[Riverman]

In my experience most players would not play a flush draw like your opponent given the size of both your flop bet (small) and turn bet (big). I would bet about 100 and probably fold to a push.

[Hattifnatt]

I would buy your reasoning if it wasnt a fourcardstraight on the board that makes 90% of the players just check behind with sets and 2 pairs in this spot hoping to take it down.

But I would probably blockbet even if it wasnt a fourcardstraight out there...

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience most players would not play a flush draw like your opponent given the size of both your flop bet (small) and turn bet (big). I would bet about 100 and probably fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you fold to a push? You are getting better than 4 to 1 at that point. If you bet $100 you are committing your stack.

[MuckerFish]

Thanks for the input guys!
For the results, I open pushed the river, and villian folded. In hindsight, I think it was a mistake. My concern was not having to make a tough decision by calling a river bet, and I hoped I could maybe push him off a non-nut flush. But the reality of the issue is at these stakes and with the remaining stacks what they were (not so deep), I don't think anyone who chased that far is folding any flush anyway. By pushing, I made my decision a little psychologically easier on myself, but probably lost a lot of value from 2pair/set type of hands that would have called an 80-100 dollar bet. If I bet like that and he came over the top, a crying call would have been in order. Also, the river was most likely a WA/WB scenario, and if he called the push, I suspect most of the time I'd be toast, thereby costing myself the most when losing, and winning the least when ahead.

If I could only remeber these things in the heat of battle...

Thanks-

[fathertime]

And these hands call a blocking bet? Maybe but I still think you win more by check calling.

[Hattifnatt]

[ QUOTE ]
And these hands call a blocking bet? Maybe but I still think you win more by check calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
By blocking bet:

They MIGHT call (you win 0 or 80).

But by checking:

They will surely check (you win 0).

[saxhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And these hands call a blocking bet? Maybe but I still think you win more by check calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
By blocking bet:

They MIGHT call (you win 0 or 80).

But by checking:

They will surely check (you win 0).

[/ QUOTE ]
What if he had been betting less on the turn, and there was no four card straight?

[Hattifnatt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And these hands call a blocking bet? Maybe but I still think you win more by check calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
By blocking bet:

They MIGHT call (you win 0 or 80).

But by checking:

They will surely check (you win 0).

[/ QUOTE ]
What if he had been betting less on the turn, and there was no four card straight?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then consider a check/call to induce a bluff (representing the flush) or a bet from a worse hand than heros might be a good idea imo.

On the other hand a much smaller bet on the turn would had given villian the correct odds to a chase the flush so then a check/fold might be in order as well.

[scrapperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
My concern was not having to make a tough decision by calling a river bet, and I hoped I could maybe push him off a non-nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arg this is wrong in so many ways. First off you are not going to push a flush off their hand. They called some big bets to draw to the flush, do you really think they are gonna fold it on the river once they made it? Trying to push a flush off their hand is chip spewing.

If you are willing to put all your chips in here then check call the river. At least let someone with a set or lower strait be able to bluff the flush.

By bettting the river like that you made sure that anyone with a worse hand will not call, and anyone with a better hand will (as I pointed out no flush is folding at this point). This is exactly what you dont want to do.

BTW I dont mind the flop overbet.

[GAL]

Just reading this the blocking bet seems to make more sense for the reasons stated, but how are you guys playing this type of hand OOP when you think he is on the flush draw and it misses? check to LAG or make small bet?

[Hattifnatt]

[ QUOTE ]
Just reading this the blocking bet seems to make more sense for the reasons stated, but how are you guys playing this type of hand OOP when you think he is on the flush draw and it misses? check to LAG or make small bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
If he often bluff when someone shows weakness I might check to him. But it also depends on if its a 4-card-straight out there (as in this example) or not.

Guess I usually bet out like 2/3 pot in this spot.

[scrapperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
Just reading this the blocking bet seems to make more sense for the reasons stated, but how are you guys playing this type of hand OOP when you think he is on the flush draw and it misses? check to LAG or make small bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree if he is gonna fold to a push than put a blocker out there. This is nice because he might get flat called by a worse hand. If he is gonna put all his chips in like he did then check call. Either way dont push in first.

I check if I think he missed the flush. This gives him a chance to bluff and he is obviously not gonna be calling any bets, but might make one. If I think he has any type of made hand (2 pair maybe) I move in.

[c_strong]

I don't see anyone having the flush after this action, and would entirely discount it. How can he call the big flop and turn bets on a flush draw? (Except T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, which is such a specific holding you can't worry too much about it IMO). To pick up on a post in a different thread, I think we have to give our villains credit for having some rudimentary ability to play poker.

I agree with the blocking bet and would call a push, which I would read as someone donking it up with a 9 and reading you for an overpair/ two pair/ set. I wouldn't fear the third heart unless I had a very clear read on the villain as a total moron.